What to do, shocks... - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain discuss the wondrous effects of boost and your miata...

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-22-2008, 03:43 PM   #1
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
AbeFM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,048
Total Cats: 8
Default What to do, shocks...

Ok, here's the story... I have a 2000 FMII with all the extras (rails/butterfly, big roll bar, sub fram brace).

Current set up:
Front: 60.250.500 (6"x2.5"@500 lbs/in) FM sway, inner hole
Rear: 150.64.66 kg/cm (6"x2.5"@375 lbs/in) Stock 11NB mm sway
Koni Sports with Race valving, ground control @ ~ stock height to 1 inch lowered

Spares: 180.64.44 kg/cm (250 lbs/in) rear springs, 12mm OEM sway, FM rear adjust sway
Stiffening: Hard Dog Duece, FM rails and butterfly, Skip Cannon sub frame brace, 10AE shock tower brace

Anyway, the shocks are all blown (3 of them), and Koni wants ~$150/shock to rebuild them. They are NA koni yellows with Race valves in them. They lasted me at least 3 years, but I'm not sure it was much longer than that. I don't REALLY like the idea of throwing over $200 a year in shock valving...

I want to go to stiffer springs (the car feels like a damned BMW), maybe move the 500's to the rear, get 650-700's up front and call it a day. I'm near stock ride height, while I could lower it a BIT I don't want to drop it much. I'm probably .5-1" lowered now.

Anyway, I've seen bilstien's for $92/ea shipped, so I'm pretty much thinking maybe that's the way to go?

Kinda at a loss here, but now's the time to make the changes. Any suggestions appreciated. I want something that lasts, or is cheap, and something that rides awesome like the koni's did (the KYB's before that were terrible, much harsher ride and fun for "********" but bad for sticking. Even 50% stiffer springs left a better ride than the old FM set up)

Ideas?
AbeFM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2008, 06:59 PM   #2
Elite Member
iTrader: (39)
 
Zabac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: High Point NC
Posts: 4,854
Total Cats: 8
Default

I would re-valve the konis and go with 700-800 springs up front and 400-500 rear, but you may need to play around with all your rear sway bars untill you find the most neutral set-up.
FWIW, i have a koni sports ots, 650 front 450 rear, RB hollow bar front, 12mm rear bar, feels very good, a bit oversteery, but that will change once I upgrade my front springs to 750ish and get race valving up there. Leaving the rear as is.

Bilsteins are not stiffer than Konis, so you will have to re-valve them as well, at even more ea.
Zabac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2008, 01:54 AM   #3
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

I bought bilsteins for this reason. However, the guy at bilstein said 500lb/in is the highest you can go.

Even with the FM rear mounts, daily driving will punish your soul.
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2008, 02:23 AM   #4
Junior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Santa Clarita, CA
Posts: 158
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zabac View Post
Bilsteins are not stiffer than Konis, so you will have to re-valve them as well, at even more ea.
Bilsteins are much cheaper to revalve than Konis. I think like $60 each.

Hustler isn't bullshitting, they suck major *** ots.

I have them and can't wait to have them custom valved.
Chapman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2008, 10:23 AM   #5
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapman View Post
Bilsteins are much cheaper to revalve than Konis. I think like $60 each.

Hustler isn't bullshitting, they suck major *** ots.

I have them and can't wait to have them custom valved.
I'm pretty happy with them on the track, compared only to tein though. Maybe I don't know what I'm missing.
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2008, 10:35 AM   #6
Elite Member
iTrader: (21)
 
paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Point Pleasant, NJ
Posts: 2,957
Total Cats: 2
Default

Why are you guys running such high spring rates? Some body roll is good. No body roll is bad. Heavy springs like that are gonna make your car break loose quicker/easier in turns, braking, and acceleration. Compliance is your friend. That's why cars have springs to begin with.
paul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2008, 10:44 AM   #7
Elite Member
iTrader: (39)
 
Zabac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: High Point NC
Posts: 4,854
Total Cats: 8
Default

Chapman-thanks for pointing that out, I had no idea...

Hustler-I think this is the case, I had bilsteins and I was happy with them, but wanted more...and I ******* love my Konis now...

Paul-agreed, some body roll is good, actually neccasary imo. I do have body roll, almost too much for my liking...
I guess it has to do with your driving style and preferance, I like the car to be predictable and responsive to throttle input at any point of the corner, and the stiffer my suspension is the better response/feedback I get.
This is very hard for me to explain so I hope i am making sense...but this set-up just feels very good to me and I simply feel the need for more stiffness up front...I got the back where I want it, I am very happy with it, the front needs race valving and more spring.
Zabac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2008, 10:51 AM   #8
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zabac View Post
Chapman-thanks for pointing that out, I had no idea...

Hustler-I think this is the case, I had bilsteins and I was happy with them, but wanted more...and I ******* love my Konis now...
I have 450/375 springs and love them on the track. I have the right amount of roll too. I could probably go up to 700lb like the spec guys, but its just a toy, not a racecar.
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2008, 11:42 AM   #9
Elite Member
iTrader: (39)
 
Zabac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: High Point NC
Posts: 4,854
Total Cats: 8
Default

What do spec guys run on the rear?
I never looked at what they run, I'm sure i could learn a few things...
links?
Zabac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2008, 12:34 PM   #10
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zabac View Post
What do spec guys run on the rear?
I never looked at what they run, I'm sure i could learn a few things...
links?
500lb or so. I think the rates are in the rule book though.
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2008, 06:01 PM   #11
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
AbeFM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,048
Total Cats: 8
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul View Post
Why are you guys running such high spring rates? Some body roll is good. No body roll is bad. Heavy springs like that are gonna make your car break loose quicker/easier in turns, braking, and acceleration. Compliance is your friend. That's why cars have springs to begin with.
Paul,
One thing: My car weighs 400-500 lbs more than yours! With a half tank or 1/4 tank, the car is in the 2450 lb range, though I've since taken out the AC. So SOME more spring might even help (25% stiffer would be the laymen's answer, it's probably some number lower than that). Body roll has a lot to do with sways as well.

I have to admit, since I went to the koni's from the AGX's, it's a WORLD of difference. It feels out of control loose, but it sticks all the time. So the downside is I find I have to plan my moves. I can do anything I want, I just need to know about it before I get there. On the AGX with it's ridiculous high compression damping, every bump was a tailbone breaker, and every turn was instant. A bump in a turn meant a slide, though a very controllable, recoverable slide.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zabac View Post
I would re-valve the konis and go with 700-800 springs up front and 400-500 rear, but you may need to play around with all your rear sway bars untill you find the most neutral set-up.
FWIW, i have a koni sports ots, 650 front 450 rear, RB hollow bar front, 12mm rear bar, feels very good, a bit oversteery, but that will change once I upgrade my front springs to 750ish and get race valving up there. Leaving the rear as is.

Bilsteins are not stiffer than Konis, so you will have to re-valve them as well, at even more ea.
What FCM's said was (and he's someone to be listened to for SURE) that the koni's are lacking in compression damping. I can attest to this. His opinion is you let the shocks me part of the resistance to compression - Koni's is apparently that this is the spring's job. What you do in practice with the koni's is turn them up until the spring returns to their correct neutral state in one bounce. It feels amazing. But you want quicker reaction! So you put on stiffer and stiffer springs.

This is the "trap" Shaikh says you can fall into. It certainly seems the natural way out for me.

If it were <$400 for revalving Bilstiens, I might try that. But hearing it's over $700, plus $400 for the shocks, well, spending $600 to get the konis back on the road doesn't seem a bad plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zabac View Post
I guess it has to do with your driving style and preferance, I like the car to be predictable and responsive to throttle input at any point of the corner, and the stiffer my suspension is the better response/feedback I get.
This is very hard for me to explain so I hope i am making sense...
Uh huh, I know (perhaps as a fellow koni owner) just what you mean. I feel like I am 100% happy with my shocks, and I just need 2x the sway and 50-100% more spring and everything will be awesome. What seems like "killer springs" is definitely compression damping on the shocks. For smoothly handling road imperfections, Koni Race and 800+ lb/in springs would be ideal. What I have now feels like a bmw, sticks awesome but puts you to sleep and you're afraid of sudden moves.

Right now my vauge plan is to get some 700 lb springs, try both set ups (500/375 and 700/500) and see which I like. The question is if I do it on rebuilt koni's or on stock Bilstien HD's. Too bad Shaikh doesn't have a deal with Bilstien to build them with the right valving in them for $500 and call it done. I'd do that in a heartbeat, even just to try it.
AbeFM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2008, 06:55 PM   #12
Elite Member
iTrader: (39)
 
Zabac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: High Point NC
Posts: 4,854
Total Cats: 8
Default

I will be on the lookout for a pair of used/blown front Koni's and have them re-valved to race and slap on some 750-800lbs springs and say the hell with it. I just might love the result, I know it feels like the right thing to do.
Zabac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2008, 08:01 PM   #13
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
AbeFM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,048
Total Cats: 8
Default

The Koni race are just additional rebound damping, no? I think that was the mistake. Sure, they needed a lot more rebound, but a touch more compression would help them feel good. Anyway, I don't get any lack-of-control feeling with my current set up (strike that. I don't feel lack of control with the setup when it's not blown)... At least springs are cheap. Anyone got a set of 650-800's they don't want? Heck, I'll even trade for 250 (375 after a trial period)'s.
AbeFM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2008, 05:42 PM   #14
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 860
Total Cats: 13
Default

just as a part of this discussion, and at risk of sounding like an idiot, has anyone tried carrera coilovers? They come with threaded 6061 alloy bodies, rod ends, and are user-revalvable. Here's a link, it looks like 62 and 63 series are appropriate lengths for the miata:

http://www.lrbmfg.com/sprint_shocks.php

never mind that price, i've seen those for under $100 and they come in a variety of comp/rebound valving . obviously these wouldn't be plug and play but for that price, wouldn't it be something to try out?
The_Pipefather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2008, 06:35 PM   #15
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
AbeFM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,048
Total Cats: 8
Default

No, but that's damed interesting! I know one of the finer points is how they respond to small displacements verses large, and perhaps these would be set up for something different in that regard?

Still, if I have a shock I could revalve at home, I would love to play with it! If revalving was cheap, I'd get myself a set of valves and pick the one I like, and if they wear out I'd have one step up (or down) in a drawer to swap in the next free day I get.

The Konis I guess you can't do yourself because of the gas charging? Then again, you don't HAVE to gas charge them either.

Anyone rebuild their own koni/bilstiens?

EDIT:
I still haven't heard back from FCM... I can certainly understand if someone is busy, and I ask a LOT of questions.... But to get pulled away from my 'safe' position of rebuilding the Konis I do need some convincing.... Well, I have the weekend to pull the shocks out.

Edit2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Pipefather View Post
jThey come with threaded 6061 alloy bodies, rod ends, and are user-revalvable. Here's a link, it looks like 62 and 63 series are appropriate lengths for the miata:
I see 62 but not 63, you meant #____?? Some are adjustable on car AND user rebuildable!
AbeFM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2008, 07:42 PM   #16
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 860
Total Cats: 13
Default

The 62 and 63 was just an eyeball guess. Anyone with a set of shocks mind taking a tape measure to them and posting the dimensions? Full extension, full compression, damper-rod lengths at each position, shaft dia, and lower mounting hole dia are what's needed. I am thinking that with some modified top hats and the right valving, these could be made to work. But I could be wrong.
The_Pipefather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2008, 08:33 AM   #17
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Atlanta93LE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 2,198
Total Cats: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
EDIT:
I still haven't heard back from FCM... I can certainly understand if someone is busy, and I ask a LOT of questions.... But to get pulled away from my 'safe' position of rebuilding the Konis I do need some convincing.... Well, I have the weekend to pull the shocks out.
Per his website, and quoted for truth:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaikh, fatcatmotorsports.com
I have found that many emails we receive can be quickly handled with a brief phone call. Other than international orders, we give email the lowest priority compared to orders or product development. I know sending an email is more convenient but there is a price for that convenience. I ask you to respect my time so I can respond to your needs and ship your orders more quickly. Please leave a message if I cannot get to your call and I will respond as soon as possible.
Atlanta93LE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2008, 08:38 PM   #18
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
AbeFM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,048
Total Cats: 8
Default

Actually, we talked, twice. I'm mostly afraid to pick up the rough ride of heavy compression damping shocks, and of course, if the koni's were scaring me at $600 to rebuild, then bilstiens for $700 is worse, no? There's a bilstien factory right here in town, seems silly to ship these up there then back here.

Lastly, he's pushing NA shocks, which is fine by me only I can't find them cheap. :-) NB's are all over the place. I wonder why?

Anyway... I dunno. I think it's just that I have to get used to the idea of dropping more money for a new set of shocks than I spent on shocks, springs, adjustable perches and custom valving for the konis... seriously, something seems wrong there.
AbeFM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2008, 10:30 PM   #19
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 860
Total Cats: 13
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post

Lastly, he's pushing NA shocks, which is fine by me only I can't find them cheap. :-) NB's are all over the place. I wonder why?
Could it be because they afford an extra 1/2 to 3/4" of travel due to the shorter shock bodies?
The_Pipefather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2008, 03:18 PM   #20
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
AbeFM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,048
Total Cats: 8
Default

yeah, that's exactly the reason. I should get under there and look and make sure things weren't hitting.
AbeFM is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LFX Build Thread carnut169 Build Threads 87 12-31-2015 09:34 PM
NB ISC Racing Top Hats DIY (How to with Bilstein/GC combo) David603 Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 5 12-16-2014 04:50 PM
Koni Blue Lowering Springs RavynX Miata parts for sale/trade 12 01-24-2012 12:07 PM
Racing Beat Lowering Springs 99-00 Miata rlogan Miata parts for sale/trade 3 01-14-2012 09:53 PM
Putting together suspension, input please... WonTon Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 4 12-04-2010 03:27 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:17 AM.