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Old 07-29-2008, 01:42 AM   #21
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http://www.choppersus.com/store/prod...---750-lbs-in/

Wow, well, the price is right, and they have the right spring rate. I'm thinking for the money it's a worthwhile gamble!


Er, anyone have any suggestions where to go for springs? This whole $1400 thing is pretty insane.
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Old 07-29-2008, 04:38 AM   #22
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong: the GC sleeves for Koni's won't fit on the Bilstein shocks, so if you went Bilstein, also figure in the cost of new sleeves.
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Old 07-29-2008, 10:30 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
http://www.choppersus.com/store/prod...---750-lbs-in/

Wow, well, the price is right, and they have the right spring rate. I'm thinking for the money it's a worthwhile gamble!


Er, anyone have any suggestions where to go for springs? This whole $1400 thing is pretty insane.
how are you going to mount them? They're 6" between eyelets.
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Old 07-29-2008, 02:20 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by mcsinc View Post
Someone correct me if I'm wrong: the GC sleeves for Koni's won't fit on the Bilstein shocks, so if you went Bilstein, also figure in the cost of new sleeves.
Yep. I know. That's in there. Another $20 or 40 a shock or some such. I did find a place with cheap springs, so I've got my 750's on order. It's just the $1200 for revalved bilstiens verses 600 for rebuild konis. I remember REALLY liking the konis when they were good. And I'm worried about the rough ride I got on the AGX's coming back. And I'm worried my roomate will forget to pay his rent again this month.


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how are you going to mount them? They're 6" between eyelets.
Well, for $1275 savings, I bet I could make an extension. Might have to get them revalved....
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Old 07-29-2008, 04:26 PM   #25
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The problem with Konis as you probably know is that they can't be made to have the proper amount of compression damping to match stiff springs because of the design of their (twin-tube) compression valve. You lose ride qual AND traction.
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Old 07-29-2008, 04:33 PM   #26
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Well, one thing comes to mind, perhaps with the bilstiens I won't need the stiff springs I just ordered. :-)

It's hard to imagine needing less than 500 lb/in but I know a lot of folks run it - with all my compression forces coming from the springs I think I need a lot.

I just don't want to go back to the ridiculous teeth shattering AGX/FM spring combo - it didn't stick and it was uncomfortable. The konis never seemed to leave the ground, and the car never bobbed.
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Old 07-31-2008, 12:50 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
The problem with Konis as you probably know is that they can't be made to have the proper amount of compression damping to match stiff springs because of the design of their (twin-tube) compression valve. You lose ride qual AND traction.
Jason, I really don't inderstand this, I am absloutely in love with my suspension. At the gap, it gripped fantastically, the rides a bit rough, but actually smoother than with my old Rpkg suspension.
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Old 08-01-2008, 05:33 PM   #28
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I agree on that, if there's one thing the Konis are, it's comfy. They don't do their work on compression, that's pretty obvious. Sure, they have SOME damping, but the majority of the work is on rebound. And that's how the car feels. Hit a bump, the wheel moves out of the way, right then, the car doesn't get unsetteled. Then, the rebound damping takes out a lot of the bounce, so I basically never wobble, It's like the suspension takes the bumps away.

And the sticking is *awesome*.

The issue is the response when I lay into the steering wheel very sharply. What makes the ride nice is the lower compression damping. My feeling is stiff springs will bring back the responsiveness.

The question is what's the line between stiff compression damping which helps with turn in verses stiff compression damping which makes you feel every bump, and transfers a bump in the road into moving the whole car body away from an otherwise smooth tarmac.
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Old 08-01-2008, 06:19 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
The problem with Konis as you probably know is that they can't be made to have the proper amount of compression damping to match stiff springs because of the design of their (twin-tube) compression valve. You lose ride qual AND traction.
I think this is bullshit. My 12.5/8 Koni RACE car rides better than a 9/7 Flex car.

Abe, how many miles did you have on your Races before they went out? I've got about 20k on mine.

Last edited by Savington; 08-01-2008 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 08-01-2008, 06:28 PM   #30
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Abe, my car is responsive as ****, I have wittnesses!!! lol
In transitions, it doesn't even think about weight transfer, by the time i turn the wheel the other way, I am alreaady going that way, absolutely fantastic, was a real blast at the Gap last weekend. Here is proof of the rebound, I got loose maybe 2-3 times total the entire weekend.
Look at the inside tire in this pic, planted!!!
(woohoo, another reason to ***** my deals gap pics out)
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Tthese pics are in order, outside fully compressed, inside, firmly planted thanks to the rebound, the car felt great the whole weekend...I need an alignment bad though...no idea what my specs are. Also need to do my bushings and ball joints, all kinds of nioses were coming from under the car...it was a bit scary.
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Old 08-01-2008, 06:54 PM   #31
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What springs are you running? Sways?

I've got 500/375 (effectively 9/7) with FM bar front and OEM 11mm rear, and just picked up a 750 to make 750/500 for a 13.5/9 kg/mm set up. Maybe the answer is more sways, but I'm... I'm sure I'm worrying too much.

My koni's lasted 20-30, not sure, but not long. $600 every couple years kinda hurts, I have heard the bilstiens hold up longer.
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:02 PM   #32
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Can you feel that they are blown, or are they leaking?
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:56 PM   #33
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Oh yeah - the car used to handle awesome, though as I got used to how much it stuck, it began to feel soft. I really like Shaikh's suggestions on sways and finding springs in the right ratios, I'm just unsure about both the cost and the benefit of the bilstiens.


Er, the back shocks:
1) Don't make the squish-squish sound anymore
2) Let the back end of the car go flopping EVERYWHERE
3) Are soaking in oil

The front shock, one has some oil.

And I think they are 3 years old, I don't think it's a lot of miles, but.... If I thought the bilstiens would last me 50k, I would go that route.
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Old 08-01-2008, 11:21 PM   #34
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650/450
RB 1 1/16th hollow bar/12mm stock Rpkg rear bar
Car just feels so damn good in the twisties, needs more front camber though.
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Old 08-02-2008, 03:10 PM   #35
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650/450
RB 1 1/16th hollow bar/12mm stock Rpkg rear bar
Car just feels so damn good in the twisties, needs more front camber though.
That's pretty encouraging. I think unless someone tells me that they get 100k miles out of the bilstiens, I'll just do that. Maybe I'll put the stock susp back on now, ship of the konis
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Old 08-02-2008, 03:39 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
That's pretty encouraging. I think unless someone tells me that they get 100k miles out of the bilstiens, I'll just do that. Maybe I'll put the stock susp back on now, ship of the konis
My R-pkg Bilsteins were sent to Bilstein USA for rebuilding at 150k. Was told they were within "new" spec: at 97% of original. Had them rebuilt anyway, but probably didn't need to.
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Old 08-02-2008, 04:23 PM   #37
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I think this is bullshit. My 12.5/8 Koni RACE car rides better than a 9/7 Flex car.
I wasn't comparing against Flex. Besides, many people with Flexes are set up up all wrong, Popstoy included - they set the body length too long in the rear and ride on the bumpstops. Either that or they set it too short and run out of droop travel.

Going back to the orig statement. I have seen Koni race dynos, and they have the same problems as the Koni Sport - the compression valve is too small (fluid displaced is too small), leading to lots of hysteresis, and they're unable to achieve the right amount of compression damping for uberstiff springs. They also have too much low speed damping. I suggest you get a ride in Ian McCloughrie's car. He's got very stiff springs, I believe comparable to yours, FCM valved Bilsteins, and you'll be shocked how smoothly it rides. When a car rides smoothly over bumps, the tires are maintaining good traction over said bumps, due to the suspension design concept of "transmissibility".
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Old 08-02-2008, 04:32 PM   #38
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Quote:
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The question is what's the line between stiff compression damping which helps with turn in verses stiff compression damping which makes you feel every bump, and transfers a bump in the road into moving the whole car body away from an otherwise smooth tarmac.
Abe, try to cop a ride in an FCM revalved car in your area, best if it's one with spring rates close to what you're used to. It might be a revelation.
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Old 08-02-2008, 06:05 PM   #39
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I think Ian's rates are still down in the mid 500s, not up at 700 where I want to be. I do want to drive an FCM car, though.
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Old 08-03-2008, 04:07 AM   #40
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I'd love to give it a shot. However, I just don't see the stiff hit you keep saying I'll get. I've riden around on 500 lb fronts for a long long time, and with the konis the bumps hit less hard than the AGX's on 300 # springs, softer even than stock suspension. They are probably the softest suspension I've ever ridden on that wasn't blown. You said so yourself, there's little compression damping.

From everything you're saying, low speed is what you want (the low speed inputs of turning the wheel and getting body roll) while you don't want high speed damping since that's what hitting a rock/crack is, a very high speed jerk to the system.

This 150k thing, what springs was that on?!?


Also, my springs are FCM rates, and FCM mounts and bump stops, too. More compression damping would likely help with body roll and transitions....
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