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Old 08-03-2008, 01:20 PM   #41
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This 150k thing, what springs was that on?!?
That was with stock springs. The Bilstein guy that called said it was pretty common though.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:54 PM   #42
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.. with the konis the bumps hit less hard than the AGX's on 300 # springs, softer even than stock suspension. They are probably the softest suspension I've ever ridden on that wasn't blown. You said so yourself, there's little compression damping.
AGX's have even less compression damping than Konis.
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Old 08-03-2008, 08:30 PM   #43
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Well, I went back to stock (cut) springs, and it's a huge step up from the blown konis. :-) Probably in the 250/200 range for springs right now, and it's a bit lower than stock, but it really feels a lot better. Guess damping is like that.

Well, Jason, no disrespect, but I just don't get that impression from the driver's seat. The AGX's were very, very stiff, when you hit a bump, you FEEL it, the car jumps. Passangers who've been in the car before get nervous when you come to a bump. With the konis, on 50% stiffer springs, aren't like that at all.

Not sure how else to define it?

Anyway, toying with the idea of making the ground control sleeves myself, save $80. :-) Then used bilstiens and revalve would only be.. time and a half the cost of the konis. Well, ok, 1.8X, but still....
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Old 08-04-2008, 12:55 AM   #44
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Well, Jason, no disrespect, but I just don't get that impression from the driver's seat. The AGX's were very, very stiff, when you hit a bump, you FEEL it, the car jumps. Passangers who've been in the car before get nervous when you come to a bump. With the konis, on 50% stiffer springs, aren't like that at all.
It's the lack of compression damping that makes the AGX's unpleasant. It packs down on the bumpstops very easily and the effective spring rates go through the roof. The dyno doesn't lie. AGX's have less compression damping than Konis. Konis have the right amount for stock spring rates.
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Old 08-04-2008, 01:55 PM   #45
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Ok, well... I got my Konis off the car, fun in itself.... But I start messing with them, and one thing I find is they adjust backwards from how I thought. They were on full soft, not full stiff. Hardly enough to keep up with the springs I've got. Of course I didn't label which spring perch went where so just throwing it back together would be a pain. I noticed with them turned full hard, it was damned near impossible to get them extended.

Here's my question (beyond begging you keep your taunting to a mild slaughter): Since the shocks feel different shock-to-shock, what's the easiest way to find out if they are "good"? If I'm going to rebuild them, I guess now is the time. I remember seeing oil on them, and they've LONG since stopped with the squishy-squishy sound. I guess I could get my 100 lb hanging scale and time how long they take to extend 6 inches at a given pull and compare them, but how can I tell if they are still GOOD?

I guess my current plan it to mail them off to koni and trust in them to check them out. Bilstien is right here in town, but I'm not sure they'd test a competitor's shock for free. :-)

-----------------


Re: KYB - Ok, I can give you that - one thing I had forgotten was what bump stops felt like. :-) The car was very low on those FM springs, so it could be that. The koni set up I have runs at stock ride height, and I don't see the stops too often without doing things like running through a 8" dip at 50 mph. :-)
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Old 08-04-2008, 05:07 PM   #46
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The only thing I can think of is take both left and right out, set them to full soft, then try compressing and extending them with your body weight, and compare left to right.
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Old 08-04-2008, 05:40 PM   #47
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Yeah - suppose that's what I'll do. I didn't think there was anything left in the rears, but I think it was just the adjustment. Compression, even with only 15 lbs on them (fronts) is <7 seconds.

Guess I'll try hanging weights off them tonight.
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Old 08-04-2008, 06:23 PM   #48
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O, now the bilstiens are looking at lot more reasonable. I can get a set brand new for $368 shipped, and $65/ea = $260 for the revalve if I bring it to bilstien (they are here in town) is going to run me less than having the koni's rebuilt.

Does anyone know how the Bilstien HD's compare to whatever came on the sport package NA miatas? I had a lead on some rebuildable NA shocks for a good amount off that, I could get out of this for $500...

I'd like to keep the travel and all the rest but really, I don't want to blow several hundred extra right now.
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Old 08-04-2008, 07:13 PM   #49
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my understanding is that the HDs are shorter and less rough than the NA r-package bilsteins.

where did you find them for $368 shipped? the cheapest I could find was $390 or so shipped.
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Old 08-04-2008, 07:36 PM   #50
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from what I read around, HD suck compared to the ones on R pkg cars...softer valving, and "longer" shock body
a quick search on Mnet or solomiata should answer that in more detail...
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Old 08-04-2008, 08:45 PM   #51
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from what I read around, HD suck compared to the ones on R pkg cars...softer valving, and "longer" shock body
a quick search on Mnet or solomiata should answer that in more detail...
http://fatcatmotorsports.com/igaller...ck_lengths.JPG

http://fatcatmotorsports.com/igaller...ck_lengths.JPG

you're right... they are a ---- hair longer.
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Old 08-05-2008, 02:40 PM   #52
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Well, that valving difference is no big deal, since I'm going to get the redone anyway. It won't be with Shaikh's magic, but it's a few hundred dollars of magic I'm saving on.

From my notes:
Quote:
http://www.bilsteinshocks.com/bilste...year='2000'
Bilstien HD's/sports, $92/each + free ship. PSS & PSS9/10 ~$1250
BE5-6558-H0 (FRONT RIGHT&LEFT) $143.00 $92.95
BE5-6559-H0 (REAR RIGHT&LEFT) $143.00 $92.95

BE5-6550-H0 (FRONT RIGHT&LEFT) $143.00 $92.95
BE5-6551-H0 (REAR RIGHT&LEFT) $143.00 $92.95

NA Bilstiens:
B46-1488 (FRONT RIGHT&LEFT) $143.00 $92.95
B46-1489 (REAR RIGHT&LEFT) $143.00 $92.95
Ok, I'm going to upload some pics of my shock testing last night. Turns out things are much better than I though. However, at least one of the rears is very different from the other. Also, the adjustors on the fronts seem to have "steps" to them, whereas the rears do not.

Lastly, it seems out of two full turns of adjusting, only the last 60 or 90 degrees DOES anything. :-)
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Old 08-05-2008, 03:12 PM   #53
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Drill some holes

Add some chain

Hang some weight

Record some times


To let the buck fall on full stiff was ~1:45, to let it fall ~90* adjusted was 22 seconds.

The rears seemed to show a big discrepancy, and adjust at a different rate. Also not as consistent. So, I dunno. I guess I need to find out what Koni will want to test them, if it's free, then I'll send them out, but over $100 a shock to rebuild when it might be only one bad, no thanks. The Bilstiens DO look pretty good. I think I might just do that.

What's the highest rate folks are running on those HD's?
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Old 08-05-2008, 03:14 PM   #54
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Some very manly finger nails you got there
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Old 08-05-2008, 03:25 PM   #55
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I would re-valve the konis and go with 700-800 springs up front and 400-500 rear, but you may need to play around with all your rear sway bars untill you find the most neutral set-up.
FWIW, i have a koni sports ots, 650 front 450 rear, RB hollow bar front, 12mm rear bar, feels very good, a bit oversteery, but that will change once I upgrade my front springs to 750ish and get race valving up there. Leaving the rear as is.

Bilsteins are not stiffer than Konis, so you will have to re-valve them as well, at even more ea.
I had to ditch my rear bar with the 700/450 setup from Mazda speed.

Mark
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Old 08-05-2008, 03:59 PM   #56
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Some very manly finger nails you got there
Gee, thanks. I have long nails, but they are quite a bit more manly than my girlfriend's. But it was good to have experienced laboratory personnel around for my test.

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I had to ditch my rear bar with the 700/450 setup from Mazda speed.
When I talked to Shaikh, he'd originally said run 700/500 and no rear bar, but I mentioned I wanted to have some adjustability, so he rerand the numbers and came up with 750/500 and a 12mm rear bar for just over where I'm at now, 11mm rear bar for just under, and I can go to the FM rear for way over or no rear bar for substantially under. Just where I want to be. More options than I have time to make sense of.

What shocks are you running, Marc?

It's hard to imagine a ride better than I remember the Koni's being. Then again, with more spring, I'm not sure how long they will last or how well they'll hold up - I remember hearing 500 #/in was a bit much for them, so going further does point to the bilstiens and their valveless design. Since the cost is the same ($600) maybe I'll try the bilstiens. I can get the one koni rebuilt and for ~$150 over what having one or the other set up done from scratch, I'll have both and can alternate till I find something I like.
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Old 08-05-2008, 04:40 PM   #57
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I had to ditch my rear bar with the 700/450 setup from Mazda speed.

Mark
I was considering disconnecting it to see how well I like it, and I will do so once I get some time to play with cars again...but I was hoping that with some longer adjustable endlinks I can play around with the motion-ratio until I find a bar-rate that feels good and lets me keep the rear swaybar. I just don't like the idea of not having a rear bar at all.
And what shocks do you have under there?

Abe-do you know anyone that goes to the auto-x nationals? If so, they can have your Konis revalved there for like $60/ea I believe and they do it within hours.
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Old 08-05-2008, 05:03 PM   #58
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what dont you like about not having a rear bar?

for the longest time, I was running a huge (1.25") front bar and the stock rear bar and just couldn't stand the side-to-side lurchy feeling. I set the 1.25 on soft and tried it out.

the car was a little too tail happy... so to improve rear traction I pulled the rear bar. it's been very nicely balanced ever since.
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Old 08-05-2008, 05:57 PM   #59
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what dont you like about not having a rear bar?

for the longest time, I was running a huge (1.25") front bar and the stock rear bar and just couldn't stand the side-to-side lurchy feeling. I set the 1.25 on soft and tried it out.

the car was a little too tail happy... so to improve rear traction I pulled the rear bar. it's been very nicely balanced ever since.
So you too have yours removed...I don't know why I don't like the idea.
I just have hopes that it can be tuned out by fiddling with the MR with adjustable endlinks.
Are there any negatives for running without a rear bar?
If no, then why does anyone even have a rear bar then? That's kind of along the lines of my thinking...I guess I just have to try it myself...next auto-x we'll do a bit of a test and tune on the rear sway bar.
Did you have to increase your rear tire pressure any to accomodate for more roll, or is that not something you mess around much with?
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Old 08-05-2008, 06:15 PM   #60
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remember... if you go HD you can sell your rebuildable konis on ebay for a nice chunk of change to offset the initial cost. there are a lot of folks that refuse to use bilsteins because they don't have a **** to turn.
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