Gen2 11.75" Big Brake Kit @ Trackspeed - Only $599! - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 05-06-2015, 10:36 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by acedeuce802 View Post
What's the reasoning for using the dynalite caliper over the dynapro? Cost?
Cost, yes. Jumping to the Dynapro would add ~$100 to the price of the kit and increase consumable costs as well. We can look at it if there's interest, though.

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Is there any reason to upgrade from your original kit aside from the added wheel clearance? Do the DP6's clear 15x9 +36 6UL's with without spacers now too?
Aside from added wheel clearance, there's no functional difference between the Gen1 and Gen2 kits. I'll check clearance with DP6s on 8s and 9s tomorrow. As I'm sure I told you when you ordered the DP6s, I don't recommend upgrading to that caliper since the additional benefits don't justify the substantial cost increase.

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*flamesuit on*
Is there an option for red calipers?
Yes, let me look into the pricing and I'll add an option to the site.
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Old 05-06-2015, 10:48 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
I'll check clearance with DP6s on 8s and 9s tomorrow. As I'm sure I told you when you ordered the DP6s, I don't recommend upgrading to that caliper since the additional benefits don't justify the substantial cost increase.


You did say that and I admit I only went with the DP6's so it would aesthetically match up to my rear FM kit. . . I'm OCD like that

Last edited by FrankB; 05-06-2015 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 05-06-2015, 11:30 AM   #23
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There's nothing wrong with sweet looking brakes
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Old 05-06-2015, 12:09 PM   #24
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Yes, let me look into the pricing and I'll add an option to the site.
Yesss. I've never understood why red calipers are more expensive though. Isnt the paint just as expensive.
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Old 05-06-2015, 12:17 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by TurboTim View Post
I'd rather have Trackspeed Orange calipers.
I would also not be opposed to this.
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Old 05-06-2015, 08:27 PM   #26
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I'm glad you retained the safety wiring aspect. Kudos.

The 11.75 kit (v8r?) I'm running didn't have that functionality.
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Old 05-06-2015, 09:03 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
Yesss. I've never understood why red calipers are more expensive though. Isnt the paint just as expensive.
Standard caliper is anodized black. Red is powdercoated. They also offer a black powdercoat at the same price. Both will add $110 to the cost of the kit.
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Old 05-06-2015, 09:04 PM   #28
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Ahhh, didn't realize black was anodized. Tempting. I wish it was more like 50. Great to have options though.
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Old 05-12-2015, 10:48 PM   #29
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Will 15x9 advanti s1 storms clear
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Old 05-12-2015, 11:18 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Do you ensure that your wheel is centrally located over the hub bearings too? No. Nobody does.....
Nobody as in, all the OEM car manufactures? Or nobody as in all the big names in aftermarket brakes? Or just absolutely nobody?

How can you POSSIBLY say "I don't think there's any merit to the idea that rotor offset alters bearing life in any way"? Of course it does, it's obvious, it's simple statics!

Who designed your brake kit?
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Old 05-13-2015, 12:01 AM   #31
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Mazda doesn't locate their brake rotor centrally between the wheel bearing races. If that were an important aspect of brake design, Mazda would have done so. The mechanical engineer who designed our hat and bracket doesn't think it's a critical design element either. If you think it's important, that's fine. I won't argue with you over it. Our kit locates the rotor virtually directly over the center of the wheel bearings, so if you believe that a centrally-located brake rotor is a critical design element, you should buy one of these kits to correct Mazda's mistake.
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Old 06-05-2015, 12:04 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
Also, 15x8 Konig Dial in user here if you need a test wheel.
Any news on the fitment with this and the new Goodwin 15x9's?
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Old 06-05-2015, 12:58 AM   #33
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I have a cracked advanti s1 Storm I'm currently not using that's 15x9 if you guys would care to text fit it I'll send it in
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Old 06-05-2015, 01:18 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
...The mechanical engineer who designed our hat and bracket doesn't think it's a critical design element either...
Then he/she is an idiot. I'm not going to explain every intricate detail about how this crap works, but any entry level statics book will explain how supporting a load on two sides works. It's not that hard.

If the stock setup is not centered, that's fine. I can guarantee you that someone at Mazda did in fact design their setup with a high factor of safety given the possible loading. To the point that worst-case scenario usage does not result in a failure.

Considering the factory setups brakes didn't include R-comp tires on 9" wheels, it's safe to say the "load" the factory brake setup sees is likely less than what you're customers are looking for.

It's fine to say you're setup was DESIGNED to work the way it is, but to simply dismiss the fact that equal loading on the bearings is safer/more reliable is pretty questionable given the application of this product.
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Old 06-05-2015, 02:04 AM   #35
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You're literally demanding a feature that is geometrically impossible within the constraints of the factory hardware (spindle, tie rod, ball joint, wheel, etc.). So then, I guess every set of brakes on every Miata everywhere doesn't meet your demands. Let us know how that works out for you.

Textbook engineering myopia
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Old 06-05-2015, 02:10 AM   #36
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Geometrically impossible and "it doesn't matter don't worry about it our engineer said it doesn't matter" are completely different. Did you read what I wrote? You're completely right about design constraints.

I said something because brakes are a safety item, so ignoring a design consideration because you don't think it has any merit when in fact it very much does is dangerous.
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Old 06-05-2015, 10:51 AM   #37
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Textbook engineering myopia
I'm stealing that phrase
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Old 06-05-2015, 04:35 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Nobody as in, all the OEM car manufactures? Or nobody as in all the big names in aftermarket brakes? Or just absolutely nobody?

How can you POSSIBLY say "I don't think there's any merit to the idea that rotor offset alters bearing life in any way"? Of course it does, it's obvious, it's simple statics!

Who designed your brake kit?
We design our own parts in house - it's the best way to ensure it's done correctly, especially since it is a safety item and we are putting our name on it. We take this seriously as a catastrophic failure would be... well, catastrophic.

You are making a big claim that all OEM car manufacturers ensure the caliper and wheel are centrally located over the wheel bearings. How many cars have you verified this on? This is absolutely not true, and even though they likely consider it, they don't do it. With this big brake kit, we have moved the rotor more inboard, locating it closer to the bearing plane (still not perfect, but closer than OEM). The OEM brakes have room to do this as well, but they didn't. Why? We can only speculate, but likely because Mazda's engineers didn't think it made big enough of a difference to dictate their design. Design is always a balancing act of many factors (clearance to other components, cost, material, manufacturability, appearance, etc), especially when retrofitting into an existing design. There often is no "perfect" design, but rather an "optimized" design given the constraints you are working within.

The issue we run into with designing this kit is that the balljoint is located too close to the hub face, not allowing us to bring the rotor inboard any more. If Mazda truly wanted to center their rotor over the bearing when designing the car, they had the freedom to do so and move the upright/balljoint or redesign the wheel bearing to allow this. Because they set a lot of the constraints for us (cost prohibits us from selling a kit with redesigned uprights or similar), we have to optimize the design within these constraints.

You are right that it is a simple statics problem to know that rotor offset affects loads the wheel bearing sees, but did you consider the magnitude of this force in comparison to the other forces the wheel bearing sees, such as the loading when you hit a pothole or drop a wheel off track?

Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Then he/she is an idiot. I'm not going to explain every intricate detail about how this crap works, but any entry level statics book will explain how supporting a load on two sides works. It's not that hard.

If the stock setup is not centered, that's fine. I can guarantee you that someone at Mazda did in fact design their setup with a high factor of safety given the possible loading. To the point that worst-case scenario usage does not result in a failure.

Considering the factory setups brakes didn't include R-comp tires on 9" wheels, it's safe to say the "load" the factory brake setup sees is likely less than what you're customers are looking for.

It's fine to say you're setup was DESIGNED to work the way it is, but to simply dismiss the fact that equal loading on the bearings is safer/more reliable is pretty questionable given the application of this product.
Of course wheel bearing life is going to decrease when you start racing a car, put stickier tires, wider wheels, bigger brakes, etc. If you don't know that, you shouldn't be modifying your car. I don't think Sav was dismissing that it is a factor, but rather dismissing that it was a critical factor. Plus, why are you arguing about this when our kit puts the rotor center closer to the bearing center? Your argument is really that this BBK is designed better than the factory brakes, because the rotor is more centered over the wheel bearings.

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Originally Posted by ThePass View Post
You're literally demanding a feature that is geometrically impossible within the constraints of the factory hardware (spindle, tie rod, ball joint, wheel, etc.). So then, I guess every set of brakes on every Miata everywhere doesn't meet your demands. Let us know how that works out for you.

Textbook engineering myopia
Simply quoted for truth.
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Old 06-05-2015, 10:01 PM   #39
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So do these take up less space than the factory nb sport brakes on my msm? I have a set of work wheels that required a 5mm spacer and shaving about an 1/16th inch from the edge of the factory caliper (impulse buy on the wheels, but I love them) I'm looking for a solution that won't require the spacer. Any chance you've tested clearance on a 15x8 +20 work cr-01 with a 0 disk.
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Old 06-06-2015, 12:01 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by crashnscar View Post
We design our own parts in house - it's the best way to ensure it's done correctly, especially since it is a safety item and we are putting our name on it. We take this seriously as a catastrophic failure would be... well, catastrophic.

You are making a big claim that all OEM car manufacturers ensure the caliper and wheel are centrally located over the wheel bearings. How many cars have you verified this on? This is absolutely not true, and even though they likely consider it, they don't do it. With this big brake kit, we have moved the rotor more inboard, locating it closer to the bearing plane (still not perfect, but closer than OEM). The OEM brakes have room to do this as well, but they didn't. Why? We can only speculate, but likely because Mazda's engineers didn't think it made big enough of a difference to dictate their design. Design is always a balancing act of many factors (clearance to other components, cost, material, manufacturability, appearance, etc), especially when retrofitting into an existing design. There often is no "perfect" design, but rather an "optimized" design given the constraints you are working within.

The issue we run into with designing this kit is that the balljoint is located too close to the hub face, not allowing us to bring the rotor inboard any more. If Mazda truly wanted to center their rotor over the bearing when designing the car, they had the freedom to do so and move the upright/balljoint or redesign the wheel bearing to allow this. Because they set a lot of the constraints for us (cost prohibits us from selling a kit with redesigned uprights or similar), we have to optimize the design within these constraints.

You are right that it is a simple statics problem to know that rotor offset affects loads the wheel bearing sees, but did you consider the magnitude of this force in comparison to the other forces the wheel bearing sees, such as the loading when you hit a pothole or drop a wheel off track?


Of course wheel bearing life is going to decrease when you start racing a car, put stickier tires, wider wheels, bigger brakes, etc. If you don't know that, you shouldn't be modifying your car. I don't think Sav was dismissing that it is a factor, but rather dismissing that it was a critical factor. Plus, why are you arguing about this when our kit puts the rotor center closer to the bearing center? Your argument is really that this BBK is designed better than the factory brakes, because the rotor is more centered over the wheel bearings.


Simply quoted for truth.
If you read the messages here between Sav and myself, Sav said the location of the rotor vs the bearings does not matter, I said it does.

He said in post 11: "I don't think there's any merit to the idea that rotor offset alters bearing life in any way".

And this is of course 100% false, it's simple statics. Thus why I asked who designed the kit as brakes are a safety item and this type of thinking is how someone gets hurt or worse.

I hope that whoever designed these parts made them safe, that's all.

Again if you read what I have wrote, I'm not demanding a feature. I even wrote, "It's fine to say you're setup was DESIGNED to work the way it is, but to simply dismiss the fact that equal loading on the bearings is safer/more reliable is pretty questionable given the application of this product." I think that's clear.

Regarding what mazda did, reread what I wrote. I can 100% guarantee you they designed/spec'd the uprights/bearings/etc to handle the loads they were designed to see with a high factory of safety. Like you say worst case loading does not result in a failure. In fact worst case loading likely keeps a respectable factor of safety still. But factory does not have R-comps and big wheels, etc, so obviously the factor of safety goes down when you add these parts/increase the loading without increasing the strength of the support. Thus putting some thought into the design gets even more important.
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