2002 VVT swap into 1990 NA with MS3
11-06-2014, 01:14 PM
#161
Cpt. Slow
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Yeah, the steady torque from these motors impressed me, but maybe that's a typical 4 cylinder? Still feels great.
To put it into text...
Torque:
The 1.6s are at 90-100ft/lbs at 2250rpm to their peak of 104-108ft/lbs at around 5000rpm, and they go down to about 90-100ft/lbs by 6500rpm.
The VVT is nearly at 120ft/lbs at 2250rpm, and hold's its max of 125ft/lbs from 4250-5500rpm and again drops to about 115ft/lbs by 6500rpm.
So 20-30 extra ft/lbs at 2250rpm, and closer to 17ft/lbs by redline.
Horsepower:
Both 1.6s really like 28* timing at redline for max hp, starting at 40-45hp at 2500rpm and hitting their max of 116-123hp at just under 6500rpm.
The VVT also like 28* timing at redline for max hp, starting at 55hp at 2500rpm, and holding it's max of 135hp from 6000-6500rpm.
So 10-15 extra hp at 2500rpm, to 12-19 extra hp by redline.
Healthy is indeed healthy. For an extra 5ish hp and $1000 later, Ryan could have a test pipe, e85 bits, RB header, and either square top or function VICs. But that's some serious cash for not too much.
Both 1.6s I compared the VVT to are also fairly healthy, aka: good compression numbers. The 123hp one has around 60k, gen1 MSPNP, NB2 injectors, intake to the pass side headlight area, JR header, test pipe, RB midpipe, and a giant magnaflow muffler. The 115hp one has something like 120k, NB1 injectors, gen1 mspnp, asmasm's intake, RB header, test pipe, and Corksport exhaust.
To put it into text...
Torque:
The 1.6s are at 90-100ft/lbs at 2250rpm to their peak of 104-108ft/lbs at around 5000rpm, and they go down to about 90-100ft/lbs by 6500rpm.
The VVT is nearly at 120ft/lbs at 2250rpm, and hold's its max of 125ft/lbs from 4250-5500rpm and again drops to about 115ft/lbs by 6500rpm.
So 20-30 extra ft/lbs at 2250rpm, and closer to 17ft/lbs by redline.
Horsepower:
Both 1.6s really like 28* timing at redline for max hp, starting at 40-45hp at 2500rpm and hitting their max of 116-123hp at just under 6500rpm.
The VVT also like 28* timing at redline for max hp, starting at 55hp at 2500rpm, and holding it's max of 135hp from 6000-6500rpm.
So 10-15 extra hp at 2500rpm, to 12-19 extra hp by redline.
Healthy is indeed healthy. For an extra 5ish hp and $1000 later, Ryan could have a test pipe, e85 bits, RB header, and either square top or function VICs. But that's some serious cash for not too much.
Both 1.6s I compared the VVT to are also fairly healthy, aka: good compression numbers. The 123hp one has around 60k, gen1 MSPNP, NB2 injectors, intake to the pass side headlight area, JR header, test pipe, RB midpipe, and a giant magnaflow muffler. The 115hp one has something like 120k, NB1 injectors, gen1 mspnp, asmasm's intake, RB header, test pipe, and Corksport exhaust.
Last edited by curly; 11-06-2014 at 01:31 PM.
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11-20-2014, 06:50 PM
#166
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Ugghghh! I know Curly is hatin' on me right now that I haven't update my thread since dyno day. So sorry, but he was right. I have just been out enjoying the car after we got it running pretty well and on the dyno. As he said 135hp/125tq at around 2500rpm.
Now, I have been thinking about this situation, as it's been my first dyno day. There were projection, hopes and dreams put on these numbers. But the fact is, the car runs pretty damn well, so much better than the 1.6. Now I've driven 3 other turbo'd Miatas in this year, just around the streets. This swap is not a turbo car, let's get this cleared straight away. K? K.
So, the swap, the much improved torque makes street driving so much easier. I can always use the next gear and it has enough torque to cruise, pass, etc... 5th gear on the highway is great, before it seemed like you need to select a lower gear for EVERYTHING.
Noise, there's more of it, including VVT racket and it comes right through the firewall. WIN.
Regarding the dyno numbers, they are what they are. If the dyno said 150hp I would have believed it too, it is just quicker. It doesn't light your hair on fire but I'm happy and it might get me in trouble.
Me thinks for autox next year, along with the 224/45/15s, baller MCS suspension and the swap the car is gonna rip. Can't wait.
Now, I have been thinking about this situation, as it's been my first dyno day. There were projection, hopes and dreams put on these numbers. But the fact is, the car runs pretty damn well, so much better than the 1.6. Now I've driven 3 other turbo'd Miatas in this year, just around the streets. This swap is not a turbo car, let's get this cleared straight away. K? K.
So, the swap, the much improved torque makes street driving so much easier. I can always use the next gear and it has enough torque to cruise, pass, etc... 5th gear on the highway is great, before it seemed like you need to select a lower gear for EVERYTHING.
Noise, there's more of it, including VVT racket and it comes right through the firewall. WIN.
Regarding the dyno numbers, they are what they are. If the dyno said 150hp I would have believed it too, it is just quicker. It doesn't light your hair on fire but I'm happy and it might get me in trouble.
Me thinks for autox next year, along with the 224/45/15s, baller MCS suspension and the swap the car is gonna rip. Can't wait.
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11-20-2014, 06:51 PM
#167
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So this leads me to the other reason I've been quiet. New DD, and it's a frickin gem.
I really wanted to get away from the SUV life and into a wagon. My wife, you have to love her agreed and then some. Picture from tonight as I LOLd at the size difference.
Better pics as I have been loving this car and taking pics whenever I could.
2015 E350 Wagon with some nice options.
I really wanted to get away from the SUV life and into a wagon. My wife, you have to love her agreed and then some. Picture from tonight as I LOLd at the size difference.
Better pics as I have been loving this car and taking pics whenever I could.
2015 E350 Wagon with some nice options.
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04-02-2015, 12:03 AM
#169
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Slightly boring update from Curly here, with some fun at the end!
Ryan left me with his car for a week while he traveled the third world with his family. Time to fix all the things him and I hate about it.
First, the airbag computers replaced the blinking light with an annoying beeping when he removed the airbag light bulb from his cluster, during the gauge project. Simple fix, reach up and unplug the airbag computers. Problem was, his ancient alarm was in the way. Ok, time for me to delete the 3rd alarm on a 90's NA. I'm getting quicker.
2ndly, a vacuum line was rubbing on the throttle cable, never a good idea. Luckily I have a box full of random intake manifold brackets from various projects, and I was able to fix this issue easily.
Then, he's been begging me to take more advantage of his ECU's capabilities. Namely, launch control. Here I am figuring that nightmare out. Finally, when I saw on my laptop that his voltage was running a little low from all the testing, I started the car, and eureka! Apparently the engine needs to be on for it to tell you that launch is working.
The next step for this project will be adding a 0-5v potentiometer in order to add variable launch control, so Ryan can tune his burnouts with precision.
And now the exciting part. We finally took advantage of the dyno at KO Racing which is 10 minutes from my house, and it only costs $60/hour! Since the original dyno day, we've replaced the cat with a test pipe, and the VTCS manifold with a working VICS manifold.
Gains are below, we went from 132hp and 119ft/lbs to 137hp and 121ft/lbs. Ok, so only 5hp and 2ft/lbs. BUT, the real gains were with the VICS tuning. Instead of just switching it off at 5500rpm, we found it best worked on at 3500rpm, and off again at 5500. This gave us an incredibly healthy gain of ~5hp and ~5ft/lbs from 3500 to 5500, which really impressed me.
It's sort of illegal in the dyno world, but if we scale the graph to match our previous numbers at English Racing, we would be at 143hp and 127ft/lbs along with that mid range bump, and that's right were we expected to be. It's a seriously fun car right now.
Ryan left me with his car for a week while he traveled the third world with his family. Time to fix all the things him and I hate about it.
First, the airbag computers replaced the blinking light with an annoying beeping when he removed the airbag light bulb from his cluster, during the gauge project. Simple fix, reach up and unplug the airbag computers. Problem was, his ancient alarm was in the way. Ok, time for me to delete the 3rd alarm on a 90's NA. I'm getting quicker.
2ndly, a vacuum line was rubbing on the throttle cable, never a good idea. Luckily I have a box full of random intake manifold brackets from various projects, and I was able to fix this issue easily.
Then, he's been begging me to take more advantage of his ECU's capabilities. Namely, launch control. Here I am figuring that nightmare out. Finally, when I saw on my laptop that his voltage was running a little low from all the testing, I started the car, and eureka! Apparently the engine needs to be on for it to tell you that launch is working.
The next step for this project will be adding a 0-5v potentiometer in order to add variable launch control, so Ryan can tune his burnouts with precision.
And now the exciting part. We finally took advantage of the dyno at KO Racing which is 10 minutes from my house, and it only costs $60/hour! Since the original dyno day, we've replaced the cat with a test pipe, and the VTCS manifold with a working VICS manifold.
Gains are below, we went from 132hp and 119ft/lbs to 137hp and 121ft/lbs. Ok, so only 5hp and 2ft/lbs. BUT, the real gains were with the VICS tuning. Instead of just switching it off at 5500rpm, we found it best worked on at 3500rpm, and off again at 5500. This gave us an incredibly healthy gain of ~5hp and ~5ft/lbs from 3500 to 5500, which really impressed me.
It's sort of illegal in the dyno world, but if we scale the graph to match our previous numbers at English Racing, we would be at 143hp and 127ft/lbs along with that mid range bump, and that's right were we expected to be. It's a seriously fun car right now.
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04-02-2015, 12:05 AM
#170
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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Thanks for updating here Josh, the car keeps getting better, more drivable with idle and warm up settings plus it's quite torquey like you said.
Perfect timing too because last weekend was a 2 day AUTOX event with the Oregon PCA. My first event with soo many changes, it's time to relearn how to drive the car.
This PCA club breaks non Porsches into RWD, AWD, FWD, regardless of tire.
So long story short 6 runs, raw results show 84 cars that participated and I placed in 4th, this is on 225 RS3s (street tire). The cars in the 1st-3rd spots? New Cayman GTS on Hoosiers, dialed in and supercharged 996 on big Hoosiers and a Boxster S that I'm not exactly sure of set up but I believe on R comps. A C6 ZO6 on Rivals 3/10ths behind me.
These have been the fast guys for a while and I feel pretty happy with getting in the mix, on street tires!
The Torsen and torque make for excellent throttle rotation but braking was my weak area as I would lock up the front consistently. I'm on Hawk Hp plus all around and they have great initial bite. So 2 things I'll work on is squeezing on the brakes possibly a bit earlier instead super late hard barking and putting in a proportion valve.
After watching my in car videos I think I'm underestimating the front grip and how well the MCS work so I'll be trying to carry more entry speed into higher speed turns as well.
CSTG FTW!
Perfect timing too because last weekend was a 2 day AUTOX event with the Oregon PCA. My first event with soo many changes, it's time to relearn how to drive the car.
This PCA club breaks non Porsches into RWD, AWD, FWD, regardless of tire.
So long story short 6 runs, raw results show 84 cars that participated and I placed in 4th, this is on 225 RS3s (street tire). The cars in the 1st-3rd spots? New Cayman GTS on Hoosiers, dialed in and supercharged 996 on big Hoosiers and a Boxster S that I'm not exactly sure of set up but I believe on R comps. A C6 ZO6 on Rivals 3/10ths behind me.
These have been the fast guys for a while and I feel pretty happy with getting in the mix, on street tires!
The Torsen and torque make for excellent throttle rotation but braking was my weak area as I would lock up the front consistently. I'm on Hawk Hp plus all around and they have great initial bite. So 2 things I'll work on is squeezing on the brakes possibly a bit earlier instead super late hard barking and putting in a proportion valve.
After watching my in car videos I think I'm underestimating the front grip and how well the MCS work so I'll be trying to carry more entry speed into higher speed turns as well.
CSTG FTW!
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04-02-2015, 12:11 AM
#171
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 205
Total Cats: 12
Here's some build updates that are a few weeks prior to the above autox weekend performance but whatev.
Here's some daylight photos of new Revlimiter gauges "Spyder"
Here's what the kit looked like when I opened it. Everything you could possibly need. Gloves, little tools, lint free cloth, a helper, instructions, etc...
I am surprised by how much this has changed the car, I was not excepting it.
Time to budget for a HVAC panel.
Revlimiter does amazing work.
Here's some daylight photos of new Revlimiter gauges "Spyder"
Here's what the kit looked like when I opened it. Everything you could possibly need. Gloves, little tools, lint free cloth, a helper, instructions, etc...
I am surprised by how much this has changed the car, I was not excepting it.
Time to budget for a HVAC panel.
Revlimiter does amazing work.
Last edited by oregonmon; 04-02-2015 at 12:25 AM.
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04-02-2015, 12:23 AM
#172
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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Mmmkay. New bearings purchased and dropped off with the Torsen to AR in the extremely capable hands of Greddygalant.
Hammering old bushings out and lots of wire wheel cleaning on the housing. Plan is to get a good coat of black engine enamel on the housing and diff carrier. Curly is getting a little ricer on me and insists to leave the housing like below.
Lucy is confused by his recommendation.
Picked up new diff bearings from OReilley's today. Dropped off 2 new bearings, diff and diff pumpkin at AR Auto Service. Martin removed old bearings and installed new. Nick air hammered out the old rubber diff mounts. That would have taken a lot of time to do with a hammer and punch/chisel.
You can see the amount of rust.
Behold one of the cleanest diff pumpkins ever in life. Uhgg.. After cleaned up with wire wheel. And bourbon.
Threw some paint on the other diff half to keep it from rusting.
New bearings installed. Feeling the difference between old bearings and new, I'm glad I replaced them.
I'm still driving the car around a lot. One thing I swapped in recently that I had lying around was this super long shift extension. I tried it once before but it just seemed way too long. I've given it another chance and I'm actually really starting to like it. I always felt the stock shifter was too short, this is opposite extreme. But, I do really like having the shift **** SOO close to the wheel. Yes throws are longer but easier, I think a MiataRoadster short shifter would be amazing with this. I don't find myself hitting 5th when I wanted 3rd either. Time will tell if I really like it.
Hammering old bushings out and lots of wire wheel cleaning on the housing. Plan is to get a good coat of black engine enamel on the housing and diff carrier. Curly is getting a little ricer on me and insists to leave the housing like below.
Lucy is confused by his recommendation.
Picked up new diff bearings from OReilley's today. Dropped off 2 new bearings, diff and diff pumpkin at AR Auto Service. Martin removed old bearings and installed new. Nick air hammered out the old rubber diff mounts. That would have taken a lot of time to do with a hammer and punch/chisel.
You can see the amount of rust.
Behold one of the cleanest diff pumpkins ever in life. Uhgg.. After cleaned up with wire wheel. And bourbon.
Threw some paint on the other diff half to keep it from rusting.
New bearings installed. Feeling the difference between old bearings and new, I'm glad I replaced them.
I'm still driving the car around a lot. One thing I swapped in recently that I had lying around was this super long shift extension. I tried it once before but it just seemed way too long. I've given it another chance and I'm actually really starting to like it. I always felt the stock shifter was too short, this is opposite extreme. But, I do really like having the shift **** SOO close to the wheel. Yes throws are longer but easier, I think a MiataRoadster short shifter would be amazing with this. I don't find myself hitting 5th when I wanted 3rd either. Time will tell if I really like it.
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04-02-2015, 12:34 AM
#173
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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Curly and I have been playing with launch control but haven't got the right rpms yet and having to modulate the throttle when dumping clutch is tricky. It's only for for but could prove useful for autox.
So somewhat current now. Aidan and I have been talking about a single DIN panel for a place to mount LC switch, brake prop valve, USB for MS3 Etc... Good stuff ahead.
So somewhat current now. Aidan and I have been talking about a single DIN panel for a place to mount LC switch, brake prop valve, USB for MS3 Etc... Good stuff ahead.
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04-02-2015, 09:01 AM
#176
Cpt. Slow
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SO MANY PICTURES.
Nice updates Ryan, I'm still in awe over our dyno gains. I drove it for a week while you were gone in Mexico, and I couldn't get over just how fun a punchy VVT engine is in N/A form. And that's before all the VICs gains.
You truly need a Miata Roadster short shifter though. I think it'd really tie together the momo wheel, revlimiter gauges, and spartan interior in terms of driving experience. Get in on the next group buy now!
Nice updates Ryan, I'm still in awe over our dyno gains. I drove it for a week while you were gone in Mexico, and I couldn't get over just how fun a punchy VVT engine is in N/A form. And that's before all the VICs gains.
You truly need a Miata Roadster short shifter though. I think it'd really tie together the momo wheel, revlimiter gauges, and spartan interior in terms of driving experience. Get in on the next group buy now!
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