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Old 03-09-2013, 10:34 AM   #141
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My '96 has a crank sensor on the oil pump and the four tooth wheel on the pulley. My NB oil pump didn't have the same mounting provision for the crank sensor, so I think the NB has a different provision of some sort.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:52 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
NA CAS and NB CAS are different.
there is no NB Crank Angle Sensor (CAS).


no, this is not semantics.

they have a cmp and ckp sensor; cam sensor and crank sensor, respectively.
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:40 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
judging by the sparks, i can tell you're not syncing properly. you're missing an event on a pattern, you can see it skip 1 and 4 twice in that video. I'm assuming you dont have the trigger wheel setup correctly.


what are you using for the tach input? the NA CAS? What tach input circuits are you using?

post the logs and file i requested.
I attached the log and tune. I am using the NA CAS for tach input. It's the only thing currently reading movement within the motor, there is no sensor on the crank.
Attached Files
File Type: msq base.3.2.msq (83.6 KB, 49 views)
File Type: msl 2013-03-09_10.33.00.msl (25.7 KB, 31 views)
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:50 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
Set the base timing from -10 to 10, then check timing mark on crankshaft with a timing light when turning it over and adjust your CAS to get it right. It will at least let you know if you are 180 degrees out or something weird like that.
Just tried to set timing and apparently my timing light broke, so I need to go get another one


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Double check cam alignment. I and E backwards?
I'm as confident on timing as I can be without the car running. I keep going over it and it seems to be dead on.

Quote:
The NB doesn't use a crank sensor mounted on the oil pump, right? But the '94 harness is expecting one... I dunno but I'm guessing at things to check.
The best I can tell, '94s didn't have a crank timing wheel. It looks like that came in with the '96s.

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Is the spark strong or weak? Ground wires for block and for MS really good? Coil wires or coil harnesses mixed?
With the way I did the cops it would be terribly difficult if not impossible to swap the coils around. I did check engine grounds and added a second one, but didn't see any change.

Quote:
Re-calibrate TPS? Set flood clear. Try cranking with flood clear and see if it sputters and tries to run. See if plugs are wet or dry.

Too much pre-start injector pulse?
I checked the TPS and it is calibrated correctly. The car was starting fine before I swapped the motor and I didn't change anything on the fuel system. The plugs are coming out wet.

Quote:
Got compression? If cam timing is off, compression will be weird. I'm stabbing at things in the dark here.
It's definitely making compression. It's cranking considerably slower with with plugs in vs plugs out.

Thanks for all the ideas. Sounds like Brain is onto something, hopefully he can spoon feed me through getting it to sync up.
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Old 03-09-2013, 12:04 PM   #145
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seems to be cranking slow, otherwise, i dunno.
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Old 03-09-2013, 12:21 PM   #146
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Well, ****. Thanks for taking a look at it.
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:25 PM   #147
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P, I didn't mean to offend with my last post. I just didn't feel like reading the last 3 pages to bring myself up to speed, I apologize.

So you have a 99 engine but aren't using the ckp sensor and trigger wheel mounted to the crank pulley? why?

Between that and the fact that you have cops wired in, I would say it's got to be an issue with ignition timing. Your cam timing can be dead on, but if the plugs aren't firing when they need to, it'll never run.

And your battery sounds weak too.

Hey, where is your cam sensor? The nb's use a sensor to read the front of the intake cam sprocket. It's supposed to be attached to the front of the valve cover, but you obviously removed that part of the vc.
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Old 03-10-2013, 03:41 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flounder View Post
P, I didn't mean to offend with my last post. I just didn't feel like reading the last 3 pages to bring myself up to speed, I apologize.

So you have a 99 engine but aren't using the ckp sensor and trigger wheel mounted to the crank pulley? why?

Between that and the fact that you have cops wired in, I would say it's got to be an issue with ignition timing. Your cam timing can be dead on, but if the plugs aren't firing when they need to, it'll never run.

And your battery sounds weak too.

Hey, where is your cam sensor? The nb's use a sensor to read the front of the intake cam sprocket. It's supposed to be attached to the front of the valve cover, but you obviously removed that part of the vc.
I'm doing a similar setup by going from a 1.6 with megasquirt to a 99 1.8 and am planning on running it off a 1.6 CAS instead of the trigger wheel/cam sensor combo of the 99 motor as well. From what I've read this is the common way of doing these swaps due to the ease of it.


Pdex, did you swap over the temp sensor, etc from the na motor?
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:09 AM   #149
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From what I've read this is the common way of doing these swaps due to the ease of it.

maybe back in 2006 when people were first playing with MSI, even though MSII was out.

Putting a CAS on a NB motor makes me sad panda. Get proper EMS; go seq. injection.
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:21 AM   #150
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pdexta can you pull off the VC and take a picture of the timing belt in the correct position with the crank at TDC and the 2 cam pulleys at the correct spots? I want to verify that yes the cam lobes are pointing outwards then.
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:51 PM   #151
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Quick update, I got the car running. I feel like a retard, but the fuel supply and return were switched. I swear the plugs kept coming out wet and perhaps that's because it's pissing oil out the exhaust. The car runs great, but smokes like a bitch.

I pulled the manifold, turbo and downpipe today. The exhaust side of the head is soaked in oil on all 4 cylinders, whatever I screwed up I did it with great precision. I'm going to pull the motor again, tear it down, and see if I can find the problem.

Thank you to all who provided advise, unfortunately my stupidity was the limiting factor in finding a proper diagnosis.
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Old 03-10-2013, 09:21 PM   #152
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Arrgh. Good luck. There has to be something to explain the oil. The engine oil has to be full of fuel. Dump it.
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Old 03-10-2013, 09:51 PM   #153
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I would not pull the motor apart yet. Make sure there is not something simple going on. Did you do anything to the cylinder head?
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:03 PM   #154
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There was some piston splatter on the valves on cylinder 4 when I bought it:



I swapped those 4 valves for other stock valves and put it back together. Otherwise the head is completely stock. I initially suspected I'd screwed something up in the head to cause the problem. Everyone I've talked to seems to think it's a ring issue. I guess I could pull the head first and look it over since it has to come apart anyway. Anything specific you think I should look for in the head?
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:06 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
maybe back in 2006 when people were first playing with MSI, even though MSII was out.

Putting a CAS on a NB motor makes me sad panda. Get proper EMS; go seq. injection.
1.6 makes me more sad panda.
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:46 PM   #156
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at least i have seq spark and inj
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:06 PM   #157
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Are the valve seals there?
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:25 AM   #158
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Quote:
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at least i have seq spark and inj
True i guess. What would I gain with that on a sr20 t25 running allofit?

I've already got the ms1, it seems like a whole lot of extra time and money to set my car up to run the 99 engine stuff.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:44 AM   #159
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True i guess. What would I gain with that on a sr20 t25 running allofit?
My respect.


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Old 03-11-2013, 10:35 AM   #160
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I haven't seen any specifics on adding a crank sensor to a pre 96 car. Is there a writeup somewhere, or specific steps to walk a noob through it? I have the crank and cam sensors with harnesses off a 99, but no clue how to use them.
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