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Old 10-25-2011, 01:46 PM   #1
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Default Alabama immigrant law and lack of workers

jew see this?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...5898479ce9be40

I love the interviews of the farmer who hired some Amuricans and reported that of the few people he managed to actually get to work, a few worked for thirty minutes before leaving and bitching about their back pain.

Here's my glib take:
  • Price of strawberries goes up to $50/lb to cover wages demanded by white boy field workers
  • farms convert to strictly commodity/subsidized crops and we eat corn-based strawberries
  • let the migrant workers do what they are willing to do (and whitey isn't willing to do)
  • the more illegals we have working for $2/hour, the more $7/hour jobs there are for whitey!
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Old 10-25-2011, 01:49 PM   #2
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So you ARE opposed to minimum wage. I knew I'd get through to you eventually.



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Old 10-25-2011, 02:04 PM   #3
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I haven't formed all of my opinions about that situation--including with regards to giving the minimum wage shaft to illegals. They are already here illegally without many of the rights a normal citizen would have. They can't vote for higher wages for themselves for sure.

But this story isn't about minimum wage.

It's about how Alabama is going to pioneer some sort of wacky and creative way to get the work formerly done by illegal immigrants (at any price) done by locals who don't want to do that kind of work.

"He says the work is hard, and when local people ask him about a job, they want to drive tractors, not labor in the fields."

http://www.npr.org/2011/10/24/141638...n-nears-in-ala
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Old 10-25-2011, 02:50 PM   #4
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When the unemployment or welfare benefits are less attractive than work, America will do the work. Is it fair to the "undocumented worker" to not pay a competitive wage? To my keen eye it looks like we have exploitation of the "undocumented immigrant" through artificially low wages. I'd love to hear Nancy Pelosi's opinion on this since her grapes are harvested by illegals in Sonoma, Dry Creek, and Healdzberg. If she paid a reasonable wage, her vineyards might not be so profitable.

The illegal alien doesn't have a vote because he's here illegally. If he went through the citizenship process, he can call his political representation and voice his opinion.

If the strawberry or grape doubles in price, so be it, we put an American to work and took that same American off the tax payer's back. Show me the wine made by American citizens, and I'll buy that over the exploitative, illegal immigrant deprocating vino.
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Old 10-25-2011, 03:01 PM   #5
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It's about how Alabama is going to pioneer some sort of wacky and creative way to get the work formerly done by illegal immigrants (at any price) done by locals who don't want to do that kind of work.

"He says the work is hard, and when local people ask him about a job, they want to drive tractors, not labor in the fields."

http://www.npr.org/2011/10/24/141638...n-nears-in-ala
As long as the Federal government ignores this issue, the next state over will always have a higher profit margin and be more attractive.

No one wants to pick fruit in a field, everyone wants to work in an air conditioned tractor. To those people, I suggest they do something so they can acquire an air conditioned tractor and work for themselves. Until they can do that, they'll probably have to do something they don't want to...unless the Federal government keeps bankrolling them so they don't have to work.

I'd like to own a cocktail bar, yet I still work a job that doesn't pay enough to obtain the necessary investment capital to start that bar. Call me crazy.
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Old 10-25-2011, 03:13 PM   #6
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When the unemployment or welfare benefits are less attractive than work, America will do the work.
What if unemployment benefits were reshaped to pay some sort of hourly wage? That is, you didn't get a government paycheck unless you were doing something at least part time. I say at least part time because you would want to give some sort of flexibility for job searches.

Working in a field, cleaning up a highway or park, data entry, etc. After all, if the unemployed are going to be on the government payroll, why not put them to work? It would give a whole new meaning to the "job placement" program. As a possible side benefit, it may allow for some job transition training - teaching basic computer skills, adapting an out of work roofer to an employed asphalt paver, etc.

Of course, you would have to figure out some way to disallow or prevent those people from joining public sector unions.
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Old 10-25-2011, 03:20 PM   #7
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What if unemployment benefits were reshaped to pay some sort of hourly wage? That is, you didn't get a government paycheck unless you were doing something at least part time. I say at least part time because you would want to give some sort of flexibility for job searches.

Working in a field, cleaning up a highway or park, data entry, etc. After all, if the unemployed are going to be on the government payroll, why not put them to work? It would give a whole new meaning to the "job placement" program. As a possible side benefit, it may allow for some job transition training - teaching basic computer skills, adapting an out of work roofer to an employed asphalt paver, etc.

Of course, you would have to figure out some way to disallow or prevent those people from joining public sector unions.
Nice community plan, Karl. We already have student loan programs to teach people whatever they want, all it takes is a job to pay for that loan. Let the people motivate themselves.
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Old 10-25-2011, 03:25 PM   #8
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Wow.

Extraterrestrials I mean foreign nationals should be allowed to LEGALLY work here for $3.50 an hour.
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Old 10-25-2011, 03:40 PM   #9
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If the strawberry or grape doubles in price, so be it, we put an American to work and took that same American off the tax payer's back. Show me the wine made by American citizens, and I'll buy that over the exploitative, illegal immigrant deprocating vino.
if the strawberry doulbes in price, we'll just import them like we do all our other fruit.

money goes to the non-immigrating-immigrants once again!
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Old 10-25-2011, 03:45 PM   #10
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if the strawberry doulbes in price, we'll just import them like we do all our other fruit.

money goes to the non-immigrating-immigrants once again!
Would it be cost effective to utilize domestic fruit if taxes, wage regulation, and mandated health coverage requirements were lifted to lower costs to the farmer? Maybe the farmer is expecting too high of a profit margin with his current strategy and needs to get real.

and you're money continues going to people who don't work because they don't have to.
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Old 10-25-2011, 03:48 PM   #11
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But this story isn't about minimum wage.
But it is. It suggests that there is subjective value that applies to employers when they're hiring employees. When contemplating whether to hire a certain worker, employers subjectively determine the applicants' value (ie. expensive white persons who refuse to do manual labor). By the same token, the subjective determination of the worker will determine whether he takes the job (ie. too little pay for a person who refuses to do manual labor). But there are plenty of people out there who are willing to do the work for $2/hour, but minumum wage laws dictate the strawberry must legally pay $7.25 an hour. Obviously, there are people out there that can, will, and want to survive on $2/hour over $0/hr.

So the farmer (as you pointied out):
1. Raises prices to cover the forced cost of labor.
2. Use the force of government (e.g., income taxes) to take money from those who have earned it in order to give it to those who haven't - BECAUSE of government policies.
3. Break the law - Hire workers through a mutal agreement, below what the law says is a legal rate.
4. Frees dollars used to over pay workers, to correctly pay others.

I see an obvious blame...
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Old 10-25-2011, 04:52 PM   #12
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I haven't formed all of my opinions about that situation--including with regards to giving the minimum wage shaft to illegals.
They are illegal because the gov't said so. One possible solution is to have short term visas for these types of workers.

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They are already here illegally without many of the rights a normal citizen would have. They can't vote for higher wages for themselves for sure.
Gov't and voters don't set wages, the free market does. Why do a lot of jobs pay more than minimum wage? Because the market has bid up said wages.

If you complain "these wages aren't enough to live on", well, think about this - the free market tends to make everything more affordable - even those at the bottom of the skill / wage ladder. The "poor" in this country live better than the middle class in poor countries. Because of the free market. Wealth comes from productivity, and the free market tends to imrprove productivity.
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Old 10-25-2011, 05:59 PM   #13
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a timely aside: the farm bill is being fastracked this month.

I wonder how much of the corn/soy/whatever subsidy will remain intact while mr strawberry can't farm his berries.

So which is better? no minimum wage exploitation of farm workers at $2/hour or strawberries becoming an expensive food?

either way, that farmer is fucked because he will go broke before he can hire enough reasonably priced labor or make a profit on his strawberries.

At least grapes used for wine have a chance because the end product price can be jacked up and will still appeal to the elitist wine snobs. nobody will miss two buck chuck and nobody will drink ten buck chuck.
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Old 10-25-2011, 06:30 PM   #14
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Nice community plan, Karl. We already have student loan programs to teach people whatever they want, all it takes is a job to pay for that loan. Let the people motivate themselves.
Is your position that unemployment insurance should be eliminated entirely?
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Old 10-25-2011, 06:47 PM   #15
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Is your position that unemployment insurance should be eliminated entirely?
I haven't owned a car that cost more than a paycheck since 2001, I have enough cash in the bank to suffice for several months of rent and bills, no children, and I have one outstanding debt...need I say more?
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Old 10-25-2011, 06:53 PM   #16
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So which is better? no minimum wage exploitation of farm workers at $2/hour or strawberries becoming an expensive food?
Don't kid yourself, the farmer who utilizes illegals is not paying minimum wage. Not only that, no farmer pays illegals minimum wage, they pay per unit or bushel. Have you ever seen a grape harvest?
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Old 10-25-2011, 08:08 PM   #17
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like I said earlier, the farmers are going to have to find creative ways to figure out how to not go broke paying field worker wages and still get field worker work done.

for example, some states have lower minimum wages for minors.

or they could hire them as waiters and tip them very little.
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:57 PM   #18
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no minimum wage exploitation of farm workers at $2/hour or strawberries becoming an expensive food?
It's not exploitation if both sides accept voluntarily, without someone with a gun influencing the deal.

Also, I find $2/hr hard to believe. Pls. post link providing evidence.
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Old 10-26-2011, 08:54 AM   #19
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I haven't owned a car that cost more than a paycheck since 2001, I have enough cash in the bank to suffice for several months of rent and bills, no children, and I have one outstanding debt...need I say more?
Yes. For example, walk me through what you think would happen if FEMA was eliminated and you - along with the 6500 or so staff employed by that organization - were out of a job.

Besides you, describe what you think would happen to:
  • the typical white collar middle manager with a wife and two kids approaching college who had six months of savings in the bank but also a mortgage (underwater) and two car payments
  • the typical blue collar laborer who worked for one of the contractors FEMA subbed disaster relief work out to

I am not saying your position is wrong, I am just curious if you have thought through the operational aspects or if it is more of a theoretical/ideological position.
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Old 10-26-2011, 11:04 AM   #20
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I have enough cash in the bank to suffice for several months of rent and bills, no children, and I have one outstanding debt...need I say more?
+1

I have the cash to pay my debt off and be completely debt free, but that will cut into my pillow that I've built up. Alternatively I pay the bank note every month and keep my pillow. Which in my case works, cause I'm at the point now that most of the payment goes to the principle.

On topic

Not sure how many of you have worked hand and hand with illegals, but I have, and at a couple different jobs now. All the jobs have been manual labor related and none of them paid much either.

You simply CANNOT find American laborers and if you do, they want to join the "union" and make $20hr. I know a lot of guys that work for private companies as well as a handful that are unionized. The difference in work ethics between the 2 are night and day.

Back on topic, illegal immigrants are here for certain reasons. Some of them work to feed and take care of their family back home (wherever home is), for years and years if need be. Some of them come here, bank everything, go back home and live like a king. Many will do this for just under a year and come right back (coyote style), some build a house or start a business and never come back. Lastly there are the ones that come for the "American dream". Many of these guys work their way up the ladder speaking not a lick of english and eventually start running their own business here. Illegally.

I am torn between my feelings on the issue cause although they do take jobs from American guys by undercutting prices, they are people too. Most of the guys I've worked with are great guys and would kill themselves just to get the job done. While most Americans just want whats easiest or most profitable. These guys just get jobs in numbers and work 100 hours a week if they need to. Although, as time goes on and they become "Americanized", they learn about greed as well.

I believe that the guys that come here to live and work should be allowed to, so long as they stay out of trouble and aren't a detriment to society. I mean for ***** sake we keep our own garbage here on welfare, ebt cards, unemployment, etc, and they don't do a thing to deserve it (entitled). Why not trade every piece of **** American for a willing immigrant to take their place? Give them 1 year probation and if they prove to be a fitting member of society, they get papers.
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