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Old 01-04-2013, 11:52 AM   #321
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There must be something in the water that makes "you" all scared as hell of being killed by anyone at anytime...

Logic and cause-action is not high on the prio list either.
If an attempt to reduce a problem does not work immediately (or have a too small effect), it's seen as a proof that the remedy created the problem (or at least promotes it). I guess then that the legal system is to blame for creating the crimes in the first place...
We had a 50% reduction of DUIs one year in the area where I grew up, fantastic result of prevention? Nah, they just performed 50% less checks due to budget restrictions...

You have your history and should be proud of it, but don't be surprised if your neighbor sees you as the same threat as you see them.
Anyone can become mentally unstable, even you...

Sure, we have shootings here too, 99,501% of the cases with illegal guns between social misfits (I would not class them as gangs), but there is no acceptance whatsoever that the solution could be to arm the public, not even in the very restricted areas where it's a "problem".
We patch things up, give the misfits some more welfare, and continue with our lives.
I would assume that there are some small pockets in the US where they feel similarly (I've seen several individuals that were not packing heat on my visits).
America and it's revolution from British rule centered around the right to bear arms. In 1775 when the Red Coats went to arrest Adams and Hancock for storing cannons, gun powder, and to disarm farmers this country was born. The right to bear arms is a fundamental premise and one of the reasons for our existence.

Currently our government is doing whatever it can to reduce the 2nd Amendment's authority, our government manipulates the currency to some degree, the borders are open and violent, and our taxes just increased...I'll hang on to my guns for now.
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:56 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
There must be something in the water that makes "you" all scared as hell of being killed by anyone at anytime...
Someone who has never been a victim of a violent crime often says things like this.

There is a huge difference between being scared and prepared. I'm pretty sure a hurricane or snowstorm isn't going to hit Virginia Beach tomorrow, but I still have bottled water, stored food, 20 gallons of gas, a few propane bottles, plenty of batteries, and a few other things on hand. Those items do double and triple duty by ensuring that if there is a loss of utilities and social services for a few days, my family goes on about it's business as usual.

I'm also 99.9% sure that when I go to work in the morning, I'm not going to have a traffic accident, but I wear my seatbelt anyways. The unpredictability of traffic accidents dictates that I don't wait until the moment immediately prior to an accident to try and put my seatbelt on... I wear it all the time just in case, and nobody considers it paranoia.

In other words, life is math. You do the best you can. You take your chances. You roll the dice. You play your cards. You weigh the odds. You succeed or fail. It all comes down to what you're willing to do (ie, sacrifice) to cover the most amount of possibilities with the least amount of effort.

There may come a time in your life where you need a gun in your hand worse than you have ever needed anything in your life, and if it's not there, it could very well mean the end of your life. There aren't a whole lot of absolute scenarios out there where a single item you have consciously brought with you can have such a dramatic affect on a situation.

I am reminded of a friend of mine who is a private pilot. He lied/cheated/stole during his FAA exam to pass the physical as he is borderline legally blind... I think his glasses got him all the way up to 20/80 and he just lived like that because he refused surgery. I asked him one time if he thought he could land the plane if his glasses broke in-flight. He said he couldn't see the instruments let alone outside the plane if that happened. I asked him about keeping a spare set of glasses in the plane, maybe in a case attached to the panel or velcro'd to the seat where he could reach them in case his glasses fell to the floor or were broken somehow. He said "I can't afford a second pair, they're too expensive". He didn't understand what the big deal was because his only pair was never going to break. He was dead if they did, but that'd never happen... over $50.

I carry a gun with me everywhere I go unless I'm in military uniform traveling directly to or from the base. When I say everywhere, I mean everywhere. When I wake up in the morning, I put on my pants and holster. I wear it in the house, in the yard, in the car, out in town, to my friends, to the store, sitting on the couch watching TV, etc... everywhere. I set it on my bedside table when I go to sleep, and do it all again the next day. I hope like crazy that I'll never have to draw my weapon, but I know that if I do, it'll be to save a life.

I'm not scared. I'm not paranoid. I'm not looking for a fight. I've simply decided that I am not going to allow somebody to kill me or my family simply because I thought carrying a gun was too hard. In other words, I've done the math, and everything adds up to "So many reasons TO carry, and not a single on NOT to carry."

Anybody who wants to have a side-bar or needs to know how to get their CCW license, training, or wants to talk "which gun should I buy", PM me.
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:11 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
There must be something in the water that makes "you" all scared as hell of being killed by anyone at anytime...
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
[*]Baltimore, MD = 29.7
this is where I lived till I was 22, in the time I had been mugged, stabbed and had a gun pointed in my face. I also lost 2 friends to being jumped and beaten to death. this did not make me a paranoid person, nor did it make me fear the world but it surely taught me to be prepared for anything always.

and not to turn this around, but unless you fairly young I assume you spent some time in your countries military program as part of your standard education, which teaches you defensive combat techniques most Americans never think to peruse. Im sure that alone changes your perspective in a way that you would not immediately recognize most Americans need to protect themselves
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:04 PM   #324
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Sure I took part in our military training, as a specialist in defense against nuclear/chemical/biological warfare. The biggest learning is to not trust anyone with a gun when there is any risk of a human getting hurt. At even the lowest stress levels things goes wrong (I almost shot myself in the foot).
The knowledge about combat prevents nothing, that arms-race logic is just alien here (and in the case of drugs being involved, rational logic is out the window anyway). If in a situation I really hope I can get away without too much damage (unscratched tail between my legs). The misfit responsible is already a "lost soul", why should he drag me down with him?

One point I failed to get across is that the sum of individual choices and risk maths creates the society (when everybody needs to be prepared it adds up, and you become prepared against each other to some extent).
Being prepared for the most common risks is vise, but is it "nice" that the risk of being attacked (needing a gun to defend yourself) is on par with getting killed in a car crash without a seat belt (so it's smart to wear it).
To me the risk of being careless with deadly consequences is much higher, so for ME there would be a big risk of carrying (and if there is a sizable portion of carriers as sloppy as me, the rest needs to prepared for random mistakes).
If it would be nicer to not need to be prepared for this man-made risk, how would the change start?

Without research It's risky to say it, but I guess that there are societies that don't feel the same need to carry, with less than 250 years since their civil war.

I like to be naive until I see a reason to not be.
Winter tires and seat belts, of course. Fire extinguisher and smoke detectors as well. Some batteries and candles for when the power goes...
But no earthquake equipment and no gun against Polar Bears (one .22 rifle for Crows on the other hand). And I see no reason of increasing the risk of either (we are pretty safe from both, but the risk is not nil).
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:42 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
Without research It's risky to say it, but I guess that there are societies that don't feel the same need to carry, with less than 250 years since their civil war.
No statistics will ever properly track the vulnerability of small framed men and women attacked when alone, or any other vulnerable state. My GF carries because she is 5'2", white, with purple hair; she is a target.
Statistics protected this girl from brutality:

I'll gladly take "paranoid" and "dangerous" over "victim. Have your girlfirends or bottom boyfriends walk through downtown New Orleans at 10pm on a weeknight (or any other scary city you so desire) and tell them that statistics are on their side.
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:49 PM   #326
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you believe you are too sloppy, careless, or don't need to carry a gun. most people in the US feel the same way and that is the beauty of choice. they think the risk of someone near them getting killed is greater than the risk of crime. if someone is willing to bear the responsibility of gun ownership then they should have that right. it is impossible to guarantee all gun owners are responsible all the time that is a risk we must/can/should/want to live with. 99% take gun ownership supper supper serious because they know the statistics about accidental fatalities.

the anti gun people know nothing about gun culture and how serious gun people take gun ownership. they see videos of people drinking and shooting at old tv sets and think that is how it is but it is not. the anti gun people can not load or safely operate a fire arm or have even ever shot one. they are scared for the most part and they project that fear and come up with an excuses why we don't "NEED" certain guns but is is all smoke and mirrors.

gun fatalities are supper low, suicide by gun makes up about half and the majority of the rest is gang warfare in the city. more people get killed by lightning strike than by assault rifles mass shooting. Many many more people get killed in fist fights than by gun in the usa. the media makes it a big deal but it is really not a big problem well except in gang areas, a disturbing fact no doubt.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:09 PM   #327
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Can't read without elementary school level capitalization rules.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:01 AM   #328
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When the gun show is in this town, I have the right to bare arms. Come at me bro.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:29 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by cymx5 View Post
When the gun show is in this town, I have the right to bare arms. Come at me bro.
God I've hated every single gun 'show' I've been to (all in IL).

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Old 01-05-2013, 06:25 PM   #330
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I will never waste 15 dollars ever again
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Old 01-06-2013, 01:17 PM   #331
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I believe every American should be supplied with a government issued parachute.

Quote:
According to the CDC, more people died from falls in 2009 alone than died in gun-related deaths for the years 2009, 2010, and most of 2011 combined. (Total number of deaths via falls in 2009 was 24,792.)
FASTSTATS - Accidents or Unintentional Injuries
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:13 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
If in a situation I really hope I can get away without too much damage (unscratched tail between my legs). The misfit responsible is already a "lost soul", why should he drag me down with him?
I think, in American vernacular, "misfit" is too gentle for the realities most people here are thinking of when they consider a serious threat to their life or the lives of others. That is the scenario in which they would consider using deadly force.

In that case, you may not be facing a "misfit" but a potential (or experienced) killer. You are right - why let them drag you, a loved one or an innocent bystander down? Especially if "down" is six feet below ground and you had a chance to save a life, even if it meant taking another's?

Quote:
One point I failed to get across is that the sum of individual choices and risk maths creates the society (when everybody needs to be prepared it adds up, and you become prepared against each other to some extent).
I think this is a valid question, wondering if everyone is armed then does it become the Wild West with shootouts in the street because of dirty looks. The answer is, only if you are in the wrong part of town and the people doing the shooting have no regard for any laws.


Quote:
Being prepared for the most common risks is vise, but is it "nice" that the risk of being attacked (needing a gun to defend yourself) is on par with getting killed in a car crash without a seat belt (so it's smart to wear it).
To me the risk of being careless with deadly consequences is much higher, so for ME there would be a big risk of carrying (and if there is a sizable portion of carriers as sloppy as me, the rest needs to prepared for random mistakes).
If it would be nicer to not need to be prepared for this man-made risk, how would the change start?
As some pointed out, that is genuinely great that you would think through the risks of ownership and carry - as all potential owners should. You have decided you do not trust yourself with a firearm. I have a co-worker who has weighed the pros and cons and decided he feels there is a higher probability of one of their multiple kids (or kids' friends) accessing a firearm, resulting in injury or death than there is of him being attacked while they are in the home. So, he chooses not to carry or own a firearm.

That's the beauty of choice.

I agree it would be nice to not have to worry about crime and criminals. The reality is probably along your thinking for most of us: a very few people who live outside of those socio-economically segregated urban neighborhoods will ever have their lives threatened by a criminal.

Much like the vast majority of people will never suffer from long-term disability that prevents them from any gainful employment. But they might suffer from a disability that prevents them from pursuing their selected career.

Is it worth paying thousands of dollars per year to insure against that? That's up to the individual.
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:14 PM   #333
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:15 PM   #334
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:55 PM   #335
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:17 PM   #336
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Current gun related bills being proposed

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/20...lls/?mobile=nc

1. Banning high-capacity ammunition. HR 138. This bill from Reps. Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) and Diana DeGette (D-CO) would ban anyone in the US from owning, buying, or trading high-capacity ammunition clips, like the kinds that are often used in mass shootings. Such clips allow a gunman to fire off as many as 100 rounds without stopping to reload. McCarthy’s connection to gun safety laws is personal: Her husband was killed and son critically injured during a mass shooting.
2. Closing the ‘gun show loophole.’ HR 141. Another measure from McCarthy requires that all gun purchasers undergo a full background check. As-is, the private sales of firearms, and the sale of guns at gun shows, are exempt from the background check requirements that are mandatory for other gun sales. That loophole is currently an easy way for criminals or the mentally ill to access a gun undetected.
3. Making the database of who cannot buy guns effective. HR 137. Currently, states do a terrible job of entering names — of felons or the mentally ill — into the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). This measure also from McCarthy is called the Fix Gun Checks Act, and has been introduced in previous legislative sessions. It would create incentives and penalties to encourage the efficient entry of names into NICS. It would also close the gun show loophole.

4. Regulating where and how ammunition is purchased. HR 142. McCarthy’s fourth and final bill would make it mandatory for all ammunition dealers to have a license to sell. It would also require anyone purchasing ammunition to do so in person, face-to-face with a seller. All bulk purchases of ammunition would need to be reported under McCarthy’s law. This bill responds to the criticisms that the internet is an open market for the unlimited sale of ammunition.
5. Requiring handguns to be registered. HR 117. Rep. Rush Holt (D-NJ) crafted this national law based on his state’s requirements for handgun purchasing. It would require every single handgun sold in the United States to be licensed and registered, without any exceptions or loopholes, and for that registry to be easily accessible.
6. Regulating how gun licenses are issued. HR 34. Like Holt, Rep. Bobby Rush’s (D-IL) bill aims to create a unified system of gun licensing procedures — for both handguns and semi-automatic weapons. Rush’s legislation, a reintroduction of “Blair’s Bill,” named after a murdered Chicago teen, would also require gun safety training for firearm owners.
7. Raising the age of legal handgun ownership to 21. HR 65. In a move that seems pointed toward combating youth street violence, Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX) proposed this bill that would make it illegal to own a handgun before the age of 21. Some states have such laws in place, but Jackson Lee’s measure would make the law national.
8. Requiring the reporting of stolen guns. HR 21. This bill, which Rep. Jim Moran (D-VA) has introduced to Congress previously and is reintroducing to the new Congress, would also close the ‘gun show loophole’ by requiring all gun-owners to undergo background checks. Additionally, it would make sure that gun owners are required to report stolen guns — a measure that could help law enforcement track illegal guns.
9. & 10. Eliminating ‘gun free zones’ in schools. HR 35 and HR 133. Following the lead of the National Rifle Association, Reps. Steve Stockman (R-TX) and Thomas Massie (R-KY) are both proposing more guns in schools. They want to eliminate “gun free school zones.” In a press statement, Stockman used this highly flawed logic as the reasoning for his bill: “In the 22 years before enactment of ‘gun free school zones’ there were two mass school shootings. In the 22 years since enactment of ‘gun free schools’ there have been 10 mass school shootings.”
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:03 PM   #337
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:21 PM   #338
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The problem with that is that gun owners for the most part are pretty passionate people. Just look at what's happened to Dick's Sporting Goods in the last couple weeks after they caved.

I'm not sure (besides Walmart) what "big business" they're talking about. There's no way places like Cabelas/BassPro/GanderMtn are going to stick their necks out in support of making FTF sales illegal and risk the fury of every state where it's legal.

It's also not going to net those companies any more sales. People who want to sell used guns will always be able to find a buyer and there's always an FFL around who will do it for $20 or less. If they make a 4473/NICS check mandatory in states where FTF's are currently banned, you'll probably see FFL's dropping their prices for transfers to compete against eachother. Kitchen-table guys will start to make a killing.

I've got a guy here in VaBch who does $15 transfers or $10ea for 2 or more now.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:17 AM   #339
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I thought I'd throw this out there... anybody who is interested in getting their CCW and has any questions or wants to know how to get one can PM me or just ask in this thread. Whether it's actual procedural stuff, or you just want to have a discussion on philosophy/mindset, feel free to PM me.

If you live in a SHALL ISSUE state (40 of them), it's really just a matter of some paperwork and taking a course. MAY ISSUE states are hit/miss where issuance is typically delegated to individual counties. Some counties in California for example are de-facto SHALL ISSUE because the Sheriff is on-board... while some counties are de-facto NO ISSUE. Even if you don't think you'll carry, having the license makes it easier to transport firearms... and you never know. There's no reason you shouldn't have one.

Besides all that, everybody could use some extra training... gives you the "ammo" you need to go to the wife and sign up for that defensive pistolcraft course you always wanted to take. Or just sign up for a basic course at the local range and take her with you. Most women when they actually get gun in their hand and go to the range, take to it really quick.

Here are a couple resources so you can check our the basic regulations... just click on your state... :
Concealed Carry Permit Information By State
Handgunlaw.us

Another very cool thing to have, even if you never plan to buy an old gun, is an TYPE3 C&R license. This is not "Class3", but "Type3", which is a Curio&Relic license... allows you to buy older guns having historic value without going through an actual FFL. You can actually have guns delivered directly to your home. It's a must have for collectors. Having one makes it much easier in some MAY ISSUE states to qualify as your "good cause" to carry. Very easy to get one:
ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Curios & Relics
C&R FFL 03 Resources
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:35 AM   #340
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There's also a pretty good show on the Sportsman Channel called "Personal Defense TV"... covers a broad spectrum of self-defense situations, law/legality, and midset/philosophy.

Massad Ayoob has a segment in each episode where he breaks down some aspect of personal defense that everybody should know. Last night it was a refresher on "Disparity of Force" which was awesome.

MA has a few books out... the book that used to be the bible is now fairly outdated with it's technical data, but the overall thought processes he discusses are still rock solid. This is "THE" book:
In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection: Massad F. Ayoob: 9780936279008: Amazon.com: Books In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection: Massad F. Ayoob: 9780936279008: Amazon.com: Books

His latest work is here:
The Gun Digest Book Of Concealed Carry: Massad Ayoob: 9780896896116: Amazon.com: Books The Gun Digest Book Of Concealed Carry: Massad Ayoob: 9780896896116: Amazon.com: Books

This book by Col. Jeff Cooper is quickly becoming the modern bible:
Amazon.com: Principles Of Personal Defense (9781581604955): Jeff Cooper, Paul Kirchner, Louis Awerbuck: Books Amazon.com: Principles Of Personal Defense (9781581604955): Jeff Cooper, Paul Kirchner, Louis Awerbuck: Books

Another good read:
Street Smarts, Firearms, And Personal Security: Jim Grover'S Guide To Staying Alive And Avoiding Crime In The Real World: Jim Grover, Kevin Steele: 9781581600674: Amazon.com: Books Street Smarts, Firearms, And Personal Security: Jim Grover'S Guide To Staying Alive And Avoiding Crime In The Real World: Jim Grover, Kevin Steele: 9781581600674: Amazon.com: Books
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