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Old 06-21-2016, 01:09 PM   #1481
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The fundamental problem, if we're honest, is that We the People tend to demand that Congress solve social issues. And they can't really do that. The only tool that Congress has available to it is legislation, and so if you ask a bunch of lawmakers to solve any sort of problem, the only thing you're going to get out of it is more and more laws.


Seriously, go back and re-read that last paragraph, because I'm totally, 100% sincere about it. You can't paint a building with a hammer; it's entirely the wrong tool for the job. And you can't solve social issues with legislation; again, wrong tool.
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Old 06-21-2016, 01:46 PM   #1482
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
The fundamental problem, if we're honest, is that We the People tend to demand that Congress solve social issues. And they can't really do that. The only tool that Congress has available to it is legislation, and so if you ask a bunch of lawmakers to solve any sort of problem, the only thing you're going to get out of it is more and more laws.







Just because I liked this in passing:

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Old 06-23-2016, 07:17 AM   #1483
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Only the police should be armed:

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Old 06-23-2016, 08:42 AM   #1484
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Only important people need to be protected by guns cause they deserve it. You and I must wait for police to show up after we've been murdered.

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Old 06-23-2016, 08:46 AM   #1485
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whoops, not that easy to purchase non-military style rifles.

Columnist fails gun check, blames store owners | Washington Examiner

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A newspaper columnist is crying foul after a gun store rejected his application to purchase a firearm following a background check that uncovered his "admitted history of alcohol abuse, and a charge fordomestic battery involving his wife."
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Old 06-23-2016, 09:35 AM   #1486
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whoops, not that easy to purchase non-military style rifles.

Columnist fails gun check, blames store owners | Washington Examiner
If he answered correctly on the 4473 that he was an alcoholic and had a conviction for domestic violence, then the store owner would have known instantly that he was going to be denied. The reporter also knew it... I wonder what the point was? I guess he figured that no matter what, he'd have some story to write, and no matter what that story turned out to be, he could write it to be a hero to the anti's and look like a fool to the rest of us.

Now... if he lied on the 4473 about his alcohol problem or his DV issue, then he's guilty of a felony, which is another story.
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Old 06-23-2016, 09:49 AM   #1487
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Probably better that he avoided the PTSD that comes after firing an AR-15.
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Old 06-23-2016, 09:59 AM   #1488
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If he answered correctly on the 4473 that he was an alcoholic and had a conviction for domestic violence, then the store owner would have known instantly that he was going to be denied. The reporter also knew it... I wonder what the point was? I guess he figured that no matter what, he'd have some story to write, and no matter what that story turned out to be, he could write it to be a hero to the anti's and look like a fool to the rest of us.

Now... if he lied on the 4473 about his alcohol problem or his DV issue, then he's guilty of a felony, which is another story.
Alcohol isn't applicable to 11e and not tracked by the ATF. Some states do but IL does not and the question on the IL form (#4) specificaly asks about narcotics.

His DA violation should've been a giveaway unless he just lied about it which yes, is a felony.

That said... I was always amused with some of the questions in the ATF form 4473. Seriously, if you were going to buy a gun for the purpose of killing people would you answer yes to anything but 11a or 11l???
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Old 06-23-2016, 10:20 AM   #1489
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Probably better that he avoided the PTSD that comes after firing an AR-15.
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Old 06-23-2016, 10:27 AM   #1490
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The questions on the 4473 are the result of decades of administrative cruft piling up. The current 4473 in no way resembles the information congress originally authorized the ATF Treasury Dept to collect. They just added a sentence one year, added a question another year, etc. All they're really supposed to be doing is collecting name/address IIRC. No cleverly worded and vague questions answered under penalty of perjury- you just tell them who you are and that's it. There was a major case about this a couple of years back where some guy was straw purchasing for a buddy so the buddy (out of state) could get an LE discount on a glock and the guy paid him with a check that basically said "for straw purchasing that glock for me, an out of state buyer." The supreme court punted on the issue (as usual).

For a real laugh, look at the NFA procedures and paperwork from 50 years ago. It was literally a matter of "fill out form, send form plus money to treasury, receive tax stamp a short while later." It was about as complicated and inconvenient as renewing a car registration. Of course, this was before inflation made the 200 dollar tax cheap.

I agree with earlier posters that the NFA should be dialed back. Really, the only thing that should be regulated under the NFA are destructive devices (not including shotguns/big bore). Basically I think the ATF should be regulating rockets, explosives, bombs, grenades, artillery (anything over 2"?) just because that stuff is generally very dangerous and the people handling it should know what they're doing when they store it and play with it. But this isn't really a "dangerous crime weapon" issue so much as a "playing with explosives" issue.

All the other stuff is generally not used in crime or terrorism at all:
-"non sporting shotguns" are a joke category and mostly a curiosity. Nobody commits crimes with a USAS-12 because it weighs as much as a SAW and holds less ammo than a glock. To be honest, the entire big bore DD category is a joke below 2". 99 percent of the big bore DDs being affected are between .50" and 20mm and they're all owned as toys by old rich guys. Ironically, the artillery hobbyists aren't inconvenienced by the NFA because finding, buying and storing the artillery + ammo is actually a huge hassle even without the NFA. Finding a place to legally shoot them is also a pain.
-short barreled x (including AOWs) is another joke category. They're basically just pistols with stocks and everyone has a pistol already. It's not protecting anyone from anything.
-suppressors are safety equipment. Even nutty countries like the UK sell them over the counter in hardware stores.
-that leaves MGs which honestly no worse than semi-autos IMO. As scary as MGs are to the uninitiated, they haven't featured heavily in crime since the 1920s.

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Old 06-23-2016, 11:11 AM   #1491
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.50 BMG
What is it like to fire a Daisy BB gun?



Quote:
What's it like to fire a Daisy BB gun? It's an experience I'll never forget. Everybody knows BB guns are scary looking and ought to be banned, but I thought I would try to shoot one without any preconceived notions. What I encountered changed me forever.

I took a deep breath and determined to enter a Wal-Mart. A "greeter" met me with, "Howdy, welcome to Wal-Mart." I'm from the north. We don't say "Howdy". I sneer back at the microaggression and strain to hold back tears of rage. Barely controlling myself, I asked where I could find a BB gun. He directed me to "sporting goods," still smiling and gloating over his slyly delivered offense.

I go to the "sporting goods" section, a perfect charnel house where implements of sulfur, death, and destruction are openly and brazenly sold. I notice a BB gun just lying on a shelf. I reach for it as if it was a poisonous snake, wondering if it will go off when I pull it off the shelf. That's right, a shelf. Where anybody could get it.

I go to the counter and the death merchant asks me if I wanted BBs to go with it. He even had the audacity to offer me "Copperhead" brand BBs! How could this inbred hick not know that I see a therapist twice a week to treat my herpephobia?

I buy the gun and the recommended BBs. I'm dizzy going out to the parking lot. A passing stranger, attired in a camouflage assault t-shirt, asks, "Sir, you okay?" "How dare you assume my gender!" I shout back. "Sorry, just checkin'," he said as if my health was any of his business. But the worst was yet to come.

I went to a wooded area to fire the BB gun, a Daisy 509 Buck, probably made by Bushmaster. I bruised my knuckles operating the cocking lever. Taking aim, I closed my eyes, gritted my teeth, and pulled the trigger. The sound of the spring loaded plunger going "boing" startled me. I became disoriented watching the BB arc towards its target. The "dink!" sound it made bouncing off a coke can was horribly loud. The recoil was horrendous, like a bazooka or some other recoilless weapon, and it dislocated my shoulder. I vomited and cried. I still have PTSD. Anxiety. Irritability. Nightmares. I may never again be the same.

But enough about me, at least for now. Worst of all, these weapons of mass destruction are available to the general public. It's time we stopped listening to the paid lobbyists of the National BB Gun Association who assure us that BB guns are hardly ever used in the commission of a crime. They scare me, they should scare you, and they ought to be banned.
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Old 06-23-2016, 11:25 AM   #1492
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I taught both daughters to shoot with exactly that in the basement of my 1st house! Probably should've registered as a range huh? They still have the targets.
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Old 06-23-2016, 12:03 PM   #1493
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Quoting someone else: "Everybody knows BB guns are scary looking and ought to be banned, but I thought I would try to shoot one without any preconceived notions."
Not sure if most people know this, but BB guns (and Airsoft guns) are, in fact, illegal in NYC. Specifically,New York City Administrative Code § 10-131:
b. Air pistols and air rifles; selling or possessing. 1. It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, offer to sell or have in such person's possession any air pistol or air rifle or similar instrument in which the propelling force is a spring or air, except that the sale of such instruments if accompanied by delivery to a point without the city, and possession for such purpose, shall not be unlawful if such per son shall have secured an annual license from the police commissioner of the city authorizing such sale and possession. The sale and delivery of such instruments within the city from one licensee to another licensee, and the use of such instruments in connection with an amusement licensed by the department of consumer affairs or at rifle or pistol ranges duly authorized by law shall not be considered a violation of this subdivision.
Scary, dangerous BB guns...
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Old 06-23-2016, 12:07 PM   #1494
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at least they aren't black. military-style assault bb guns are just indescribable terror.
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Old 06-23-2016, 12:50 PM   #1495
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I remember when "santa" got me a Red Ryder BB Gun. Nobody else in the trailer park ever said a word about an 8-year-old sitting on the front porch and firing at soda cans and the big oak tree in the otherwise very open and very small front yard facing the cul-de-sac. That was little more than 2 decades ago. My how times have changed.

I remain very upset that I can't go to the store and simply buy a gun muffler. I want my "bang bang" guns to go "click click" just like in the movies.
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Old 06-23-2016, 12:58 PM   #1496
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My BB gun/pellet rifle is one that is supposed to look like an M-4/AR-15. Made by Crossmann. Not that I wanted one that looked like that, but it was the cheapest one they had at the time.
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Old 06-23-2016, 03:04 PM   #1497
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Only the police should be armed:

Jesus, I can't get over those nasty-*** acrylic talons. Never understood why that **** was ever invented.




Anyway... In Germany, where only the police are armed, hostage situations end with only one fatality: the hostage-taker:




German cinema attacker takes hostages before being killed by police
By Holly Yan, CNN Updated 12:57 PM ET, Thu June 23, 2016


A masked gunman stormed a German cinema Thursday afternoon, taking hostages before he was killed by police, officials said.

The rifle-wielding man entered the cinema in Viernheim, near Frankfurt in western Germany, shortly before 3 p.m. local time, Hesse Interior Minister Peter Beuth said.

Police received reports of four shots fired.



German public TV initially said 25 people were injured, but it wasn't clear if they were shot or hurt in other ways.

After the ordeal ended, a Viernheim police spokesman told CNN that no one was injured by gunfire aside from the attacker.

The U.S. Embassy in Germany said officials are looking into the possibility that tear gas might have caused some of the injuries, spokeswoman Jackie McKennan said.
At one point, the assailant took hostages, but it's unclear why.

"There were hostages in the vicinity of the individual. It was at this point that he was fatally shot by special forces," Beuth said. "I have no knowledge that anyone else was harmed."



The cinema is part of a major shopping center called Rhein Neckar Zentrum Viernheim. The complex, with more than 100 businesses, hosts 20,000 visitors daily, according to its website.

An employee at Coyote Café Viernheim, just across from the cinema, said about 50 to 100 officers rushed to the scene.

"Our café went into lockdown. We brought all of our customers out of the back door," said the employee, who asked not to be named.



Police respond to the attack in Viernheim.

"This is something very unusual for our town. I've never seen anything like that. I never want to see anything like that again."

Late Thursday afternoon, the shopping complex announced the police operation was over.

"At this moment in time we have no information on injured persons," the shopping center said on its Facebook page. "The driveway is still blocked. We will keep you updated on new developments. "

The motive for Thursday's attack remains unclear, but German police said there's no indication the incident was terror-related.

Prior to the attack, police had repeatedly warned that Germany could be targeted by ISIS.

Germany absorbed more than 1 million refugees last year, and there have been concerns about the possibility of ISIS cells in the country.

Germany cinema attack: Suspect killed by police in Viernheim - CNN.com
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Old 06-24-2016, 10:40 AM   #1498
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Old 06-24-2016, 11:01 AM   #1499
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There Are Now More Bureaucrats With Guns Than U.S. Marines

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The “Militarization of America” report found civilian agencies spent $1.48 billion on guns, ammunition, and military-style equipment between 2006 and 2014. Examples include IRS agents with AR-15s, and EPA bureaucrats wearing camouflage.

“Regulatory enforcement within administrative agencies now carries the might of military-style equipment and weapons,” Open the Books said. “For example, the Food and Drug Administration includes 183 armed ‘special agents,’ a 50 percent increase over the ten years from 1998-2008. At Health and Human Services (HHS), ‘Special Office of Inspector General Agents’ are now trained with sophisticated weaponry by the same contractors who train our military special forces troops.”

Open the Books found there are now over 200,000 non-military federal officers with arrest and firearm authority, surpassing the 182,100 personnel who are actively serving in the U.S. Marines Corps.

The IRS spent nearly $11 million on guns, ammunition, and military-style equipment for its 2,316 special agents. The tax collecting agency has billed taxpayers for pump-action and semi-automatic shotguns, semi-automatic Smith & Wesson M&P15s, and Heckler & Koch H&K 416 rifles, which can be loaded with 30-round magazines.

The EPA spent $3.1 million on guns, ammo, and equipment, including drones, night vision, “camouflage and other deceptive equipment,” and body armor.

When asked about the spending, and EPA spokesman said the report “cherry picks information and falsely misrepresents the work of two administrations whose job is to protect public health.”

“Many purchases were mischaracterized or blown out of proportion in the report,” said spokesman Nick Conger. “EPA’s criminal enforcement program has not purchased unmanned aircraft, and the assertions that military-grade weapons are part of its work are false.”

...

Adam Andrzejewski, the CEO of Open the Books who wrote the report, pushed back against the EPA’s statement, and provided contract data to back up his claims.

“How can the EPA spokesperson deny hard facts from their own checkbook?” he said. “Alongside our oversight report, OpenTheBooks.com also released a PDF of all raw data. This line-by-line transactional record from the EPA’s own checkbook on page 113 clearly shows that in 2013 and 2014 the EPA purchased tens of thousands of dollars of ‘Unmanned Aircraft’ from Bergen RC Helicopters Inc which on a net basis amounted to approximately $34,000.”

“All of the assertions in our oversight report are the quantification of actual spending records produced and reported to us by the federal agencies themselves,” Andrzejewski said.
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Old 06-24-2016, 11:30 AM   #1500
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ORLY?

Maybe we should go back to a draft. Like Switzerland...

Gun Ownership and Homicides in Honduras vs. Switzerland : snopes.com

"Additionally, it is not true that Honduras "bans citizens from owning guns" nor that Switzerland "requires citizens to own guns." Honduras enacted a ban on open and concealed carry in 2007, but a 2012 news report stated that "under the existing law, citizens are allowed to own as many as five personal firearms," and in mid-2014 Guns & Ammo rated Honduras as one of the "10 Best Countries for Gun Owners," saying that "Hondurans may purchase most popular types of shotguns, handguns or rifles for the recognized purposes of self-defense and recreation." While Switzerland ranks fourth among all countries in gun ownership per capita (much higher than Honduras), they do not "require" all their citizens to own guns. Switzerland has a long history of mandatory military service for all able-bodied male citizens. The government issues firearms to conscripted men which, after training, they take home with them and keep until the conclusion of their military obligation (about age 34 for non-officers), but no other citizens are "required" to own guns:"
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