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Old 07-02-2012, 01:57 PM   #181
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And on top of that, they could only be installed by someone who spent an inordinate amount of time training to do brakes on every possible vehicle under every conceivable set of conditions.
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Old 07-02-2012, 02:05 PM   #182
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and is now required to perform all the same oil/brake jobs on motocycles and scooters and tricycles, and unicorns -- for 26 years.
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Old 07-02-2012, 03:16 PM   #183
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And auto-insurers were not allowed to raise prices to insure vehicles that no longer had manufacturer parts support, imagine how much it would cost to replace failed wheel hubs in 80 year old cars. What if auto-insurers couldn't "pull the plug" on a car and total it? What if they were required by law to pay to repair everything to 100% OEM specification regardless of vehicle age? Oh-crap, I drove my '63 split-window through a level-3 snow emergency and wrecked it - insurance will fix it. What if, instead of providing my credit card to the gas-pump, I inserted my insurance card? Does Jiffy-Lube accept Allstate, or do I need to go to the Valvoline Express instead? Do you total a brand new car on average about every 3 months? That's okay, we're not allowed to deny you coverage, and you get the same rate as your 50-year-old neighbor who has never had an accident in his life

Yeah, if auto insurers were required to cover as much as health insurers are, there would be a TON of Americans riding bicycles to work, but that's okay, becaues the federal government would charge you a penalty for not having auto-insurance so that they could pay for the idiots who kill bicyclists.
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Old 07-02-2012, 03:57 PM   #184
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acutally, they wouldn't fix your '63. cost/benefit.
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Old 07-02-2012, 04:05 PM   #185
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And don't forget that any car that comes in gets repaired to a barely roadworthy level before getting shoved back out the door. No matter if the owner has any prayer of paying or not.
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Old 07-02-2012, 04:07 PM   #186
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and they also are forced to repair peop.. cars who drift and ruin their cars on purpose and lead alternative lifestyles.


i think they call it man babies or something.
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Old 07-02-2012, 04:29 PM   #187
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How many of you guys would support a repeal of EMTALA (the law that requires ERs to treat patients with critical emergencies)? To be clear, a repeal of EMTALA would allow hospitals to turn away patients with life-threatening injuries who did not have the ability to pay for those injuries.
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Old 07-02-2012, 04:37 PM   #188
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I would, after, and only after, a whole bunch of other anti-competitive regulations were removed first.

Removing anti-competitive regulations would make health care as a whole less expensive for everyone. In the 1960s, before EMTALA, ER's in general did NOT turn away patients who did not have insurance. The reason for this is that such patients were NOT a big drain on hospitals' finances, because a higher % of folks had catastrophic insurance (which was inexpensive back then), because hospitals didn't cost as much back then (a result of decades of anti-competitive regulation), and they weren't squeezed by Medicare such that they had to make up the difference by charging uninsured folks the highest rate in a tiered price system. Back then hospitals and doctors routinely gave away a small % of their time to charity.

Whenever the gov't meddles in any industry, it increases costs and reduces quality, which then tends to create more calls for regulation... and you get a spiral.
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Old 07-02-2012, 04:51 PM   #189
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One time my friend was choking on a Everlasting Gobstopper. I performed the Himlick [sp?} manuever and removed said obstruction from his airways.

I never once asked for payment.


think about it.



I also donate to animal clinics.
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Old 07-02-2012, 04:59 PM   #190
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No off-tangent qualifiers, please. Do you or do you not support a repeal of EMTALA today?
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Old 07-02-2012, 05:07 PM   #191
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Quote:
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I'm here for the "him-licking".
PM me!
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Old 07-02-2012, 05:23 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
I would, after, and only after, a whole bunch of other anti-competitive regulations were removed first.

Removing anti-competitive regulations would make health care as a whole less expensive for everyone. In the 1960s, before EMTALA, ER's in general did NOT turn away patients who did not have insurance. The reason for this is that such patients were NOT a big drain on hospitals' finances, because a higher % of folks had catastrophic insurance (which was inexpensive back then), because hospitals didn't cost as much back then (a result of decades of anti-competitive regulation), and they weren't squeezed by Medicare such that they had to make up the difference by charging uninsured folks the highest rate in a tiered price system. Back then hospitals and doctors routinely gave away a small % of their time to charity.

Whenever the gov't meddles in any industry, it increases costs and reduces quality, which then tends to create more calls for regulation... and you get a spiral.
^^^Legit post. Read it again everyone.
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Old 07-02-2012, 05:42 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
I would, after, and only after, a whole bunch of other anti-competitive regulations were removed first.

Removing anti-competitive regulations would make health care as a whole less expensive for everyone. In the 1960s, before EMTALA, ER's in general did NOT turn away patients who did not have insurance. The reason for this is that such patients were NOT a big drain on hospitals' finances, because a higher % of folks had catastrophic insurance (which was inexpensive back then), because hospitals didn't cost as much back then (a result of decades of anti-competitive regulation), and they weren't squeezed by Medicare such that they had to make up the difference by charging uninsured folks the highest rate in a tiered price system. Back then hospitals and doctors routinely gave away a small % of their time to charity.

Whenever the gov't meddles in any industry, it increases costs and reduces quality, which then tends to create more calls for regulation... and you get a spiral.
I find it interesting that a friend of mine who was railing on Obama care says he is voting for Romney He is anti government regulation libertarian leaning and all and is considering retiring in Costa Rica.

He was telling me how good the healthcare system is in Costa Rica you can walk into any clinic and get care easily.

Knowing nothing about it myself I looked at what System Costa Rica has. Sure enough it is a Government run health care system citizens are forced to pay into by an amount proportional to income. Average price is less than $50 a month. Private insurance is available and non-government clinics are available but the state of the art medical care on par with the US is in the government run clinics and at a considerably lower cost. Everyone is covered with no out of pocket cost.
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Old 07-02-2012, 05:48 PM   #194
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Sounds like a fantasy. Got links?

When I was in Taiwan having dinner with a customer and our Sales pukes, said customer got a fishbone stuck in his throat. After dinner we went to a small cash-only clinic with a doctor and a nurse. It was 9 PM and removing the fishbone was a 5 minute procedure and $20 IIRC. That's the free market in action. This doctor decided he wanted to make some bux opening a walk-in clinic that stayed open late. Few regulations that stop doctors from setting up little clinics like that. Try doing that in an ER here, see how much they charge.

Last edited by JasonC SBB; 07-02-2012 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 07-02-2012, 06:20 PM   #195
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If there is one thing I don't want the "free market" regulating it's health care. To pull out a fish bone? I'd imagine one of those urgent care places could take care of it. Looking at my insurance card it would have cost me $40, $150 if I went to the ER.


Re. EMTALA, ---- no to repealing it.
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Old 07-02-2012, 06:21 PM   #196
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Quote:
To pull out a fish bone? I'd imagine one of those urgent care places could take care of it. Looking at my insurance card it would have cost me $40, $150 if I went to the ER.
That's your copay. Do you know how much the clinic would charge your insurer? Or how much you'd pay if you paid cash? It was $20 in Taiwan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FatKao View Post
If there is one thing I don't want the "free market" regulating it's health care. .
Pls. expound.

Why is it that the free market is brilliant at making cellphones and computers ever better and cheaper, and somehow, when it comes to health care, it isn't? Can you theorize why?

Last edited by JasonC SBB; 07-02-2012 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 07-02-2012, 06:35 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
Pls. expound.

Why is it that the free market is brilliant at making cellphones and computers ever better and cheaper, and somehow, when it comes to health care, it isn't? Can you theorize why?
You think cell phones and computers are wonderful somehow? I see intermittent service limited coverage ridiculous pricing and the list goes on with my dislike for cheap Chinese slave labor manufactured unnecessary consumer products.

Also much of the technology was born directly out of expenditures and programs of the US Federal government for computing the internet and GPS navigation. Many things would have never got off the ground as quickly as they did. The US has second rate internet connectivity simply because it is not viewed as a public utility like it is in other countries.

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Old 07-02-2012, 06:40 PM   #198
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Many reasons.

Healthcare, especially emergent care, is not anywhere near free. It's a natural monopoly in the vast majority of this country. Multiple hospitals providing complex care aren't going to be feasible for anywhere except urban areas. Restrict that to hospitals that are close enough to take emergency calls and it's even less. When I lived in Jersey, the densest state in the union, I rarely had a choice of more than 2 hospitals to bring a patent to. While I could have, and would have if the patent demanded it, driven to anywhere there just aren't that many hospitals around. Factor in hospitals that are trauma centers or ones that have a cath lab and the amount of potentials plummits. Cell phones you could buy any manufacturer on pretty much any carrier from anywhere.

People are far from rational when making decisions about health. That is why there are laws requiring informed consent, not just consent. Manipulation to lead people to the most profitable outcome would be trivial in cases like this. Cell phones you can take as long as you'd like to research and figure out exactly what plan/phone suits you the best.

Massive barrier to entry, hospitals aren't cheap. Your simple doc in the box case confuses me a bit because they are all over the place where I've lived. (NJ and NC) I'd imagine the only reason there aren't any late night ones is because there is little to no demand for it, not some regulation preventing them from being open at night.

And that's not even getting into the issue of allowing a corporation to decide what an acceptable level of risk is. Implant a device that may fail catastrophically in 5 years? Well I'll be retired in 5 years so sure, go ahead and implant away, not going to be my problem when it blows up.
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Old 07-02-2012, 06:41 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
Sounds like a fantasy. Got links?

When I was in Taiwan having dinner with a customer and our Sales pukes, said customer got a fishbone stuck in his throat. After dinner we went to a small clinic with a doctor and a nurse. It was 9 PM and removing the fishbone was a 5 minute procedure and $20 IIRC. That's the free market in action. This doctor decided he wanted to make some bux opening a walk-in clinic that stayed open late. Few regulations that stop doctors from setting up little clinics like that. Try doing that in an ER here, see how much they charge.
Health Care Costa Rica | Costa Rica Health Care | Health Care in Costa Rica
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Old 07-02-2012, 08:03 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by FatKao View Post
Many reasons.

Healthcare, especially emergent care, is not anywhere near free. It's a natural monopoly in the vast majority of this country. The monopoly is not natural, in natural conditions, a less expensive hospital would pop-up next door to the first hospital offering the same care for less Multiple hospitals providing complex care aren't going to be feasible for anywhere except urban areas. Multiple "hospitals" are feasible in small towns, in a free market, most small towns should have between 2 and 5 independent medical facilities with at least 1 to 2 of them operating as an emergency vet center operates - with minimum staff "on-call" for late night emergencies, these smaller independent medical facilities would be able to handle 95-99% of the medical emergencies in that town, with 1-5% of emergencies going to the larger city facilities. Restrict that to hospitals that are close enough to take emergency calls and it's even less. When I lived in Jersey, the densest state in the union, I rarely had a choice of more than 2 hospitals to bring a patent to. While I could have, and would have if the patent demanded it, driven to anywhere there just aren't that many hospitals around. Factor in hospitals that are trauma centers or ones that have a cath lab and the amount of potentials plummits. Cell phones you could buy any manufacturer on pretty much any carrier from anywhere.

People are far from rational when making decisions about health. Absolutely true That is why there are laws requiring informed consent, not just consent. Manipulation to lead people to the most profitable outcome would be trivial in cases like this. The "free market" medical facility has fee-schedules publically and easily available so that consumers can compare prices, it's in the interest of the medical facility to charge less for a given service than the other facilities in the area. This helps lead to consumer "favoritism" towards a given hospital based on perceived value of services which helps the consumer decide which hospital to go to in an emergency when there is no time to compare fee schedules Cell phones you can take as long as you'd like to research and figure out exactly what plan/phone suits you the best.

Massive barrier to entry, hospitals aren't cheap. Your simple doc in the box case confuses me a bit because they are all over the place where I've lived. (NJ and NC) I'd imagine the only reason there aren't any late night ones is because there is little to no demand for it, not some regulation preventing them from being open at night. This probably has mostly to do with private practice doctors not wanting to spend their evenings/weekends on call than anything, smaller staffs can manage small case loads on call, but it is definitely easier to require your employees to work call-shifts at 30 doctors / 200 staff than it would be with 3 doctors / 8 staff - doctors don't like working late nights.

And that's not even getting into the issue of allowing a corporation to decide what an acceptable level of risk is. Implant a device that may fail catastrophically in 5 years? Well I'll be retired in 5 years so sure, go ahead and implant away, not going to be my problem when it blows up.
There are definitely drawbacks in both government regulated and 100% free-market health systems, the ideal system (in my world, maybe not yours) is one where government regulation is limited to making information perfectly available. My perfect insurance solution is 100% UNREGULATED, with the exception of perfect information. If you want long-term chronic disease care or birth-control in your insurance, those should be riders on your policy, not required by government regulation.
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