Minimum Wage - Should It Be Raised? How Far? - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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View Poll Results: Should the Federal Minimum Wage be Raised?
No, those jobs are for teenagers and 2nd incomes. 58 67.44%
Yes, to about $10/Hr. 14 16.28%
Yes, to about $15/Hr. 11 12.79%
Yes, to $_____/Hr. 3 3.49%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-21-2014, 02:54 PM   #21
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I don't see why someone who can only provide labor worth $5 an hour should be legally barred from employment.
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:06 PM   #22
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/\ I wish I could +prop that post
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:08 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
I don't see why someone who can only provide labor worth $5 an hour should be legally barred from employment.
Quoted for truth.
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:14 PM   #24
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If fast food workers actually get their wish and make $15 an hour, they will find themselves competing with every liberal arts major in the country.
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:21 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Overextend themselves with debt-financed-purchasing, and engage in speculative real-estate "investing" fueled by greed and a willful ignorance of the rules of the game?
Those people are victims just as much as anybody. Victims of predatory banks, the hype surrounding the bubble, and their own ignorance.

I was referring more to the finance industry as a whole. Those firms were given a loaded gun in the form of "economy boosting deregulation", at which point their greed lead them to use that gun to shoot lots of people.
Im not putting all the blame on our finance industry either, Europe (the UK in particular) is responsible as well.

The people in charge do not act with the future in mind. Their focus, as they have been taught, is to make money for the shareholders.
Theyre too shortsighted to see the importance of building wealth for all the stakeholders associated with an organization (customers, suppliers, employees, the government), they just do whatever they can to get their 4th private jet loaded with cocaine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
I don't see why someone who can only provide labor worth $5 an hour should be legally barred from employment.
What labor is worth $5 an hour? A mentally disabled grocery bagger is worth more than that.
If someone isnt worth 10 bucks an hour in 2014 dollars then they are not working hard enough. If they want to work they will have to stop sucking at their job.
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:28 PM   #26
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Should volunteer work be outlawed? What about unpaid internships?
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:33 PM   #27
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Unpaid internships have been made illegal in many places due to rampant exploitation.
Its something that should be okay, but isnt because people are bastards.

Like I said, its a problem with business ethics. Until everybody can learn to not screw people, regulation is required.
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:37 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Overextend themselves with debt-financed-purchasing, and engage in speculative real-estate "investing" fueled by greed and a willful ignorance of the rules of the game?

Oh, wait- that was private individuals, not corporations.
Except the financial industry joined the fun too by leveraging way too much risk and then relying on the taxpayers to bail them out when the house finally won. If we want to hold everyone accountable for their decisions then we should have let the country spin in to a complete depression by letting all of those corporations who became insolvent tank.

Luckily I'm an accountant so I would still have great work prospects because someone has to audit those companies even when they declare bankruptcy
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:38 PM   #29
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Here's a good one for those of you arguing about unpaid internships and volunteer work: look up how hospice care came into being and what kind of money circulates around it now.
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:53 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
What labor is worth $5 an hour? A mentally disabled grocery bagger is worth more than that.
By what measure is this assertion justified? Aside from the fundamental concept of supply-and-demand in the labor force, what dictates the value of any given form of labor? Is there a book somewhere that has tables which show me, in unambiguous terms, what the economic value of rolling silverware into cloth napkins is?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
If someone isnt worth 10 bucks an hour in 2014 dollars then they are not working hard enough. If they want to work they will have to stop sucking at their job.
Or, put another way, someone should not be permitted to work below a certain minimum threshold of productivity, effectively creating a barrier to entry for those extremely unskilled persons who wish to enter the labor force for the first time (eg: recent immigrants with poor English language skills and no vocational training at all) or for those who are employed in positions which are, to some extent, offered principally as a form of corporate benevolence (eg: retired persons working as door-greeters at WalMart.)
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:55 PM   #31
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:59 PM   #32
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Which would you guys rather have? A higher minimum wage, or more unions? Because without a minimum wage, I'm sure a lot more places would unionize.

Pick your poison.
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Old 05-21-2014, 04:06 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
Those people are victims just as much as anybody. Victims of predatory banks, the hype surrounding the bubble, and their own ignorance.

I was referring more to the finance industry as a whole. Those firms were given a loaded gun in the form of "economy boosting deregulation", at which point their greed lead them to use that gun to shoot lots of people.
Im not putting all the blame on our finance industry either, Europe (the UK in particular) is responsible as well.

The people in charge do not act with the future in mind. Their focus, as they have been taught, is to make money for the shareholders.
Theyre too shortsighted to see the importance of building wealth for all the stakeholders associated with an organization (customers, suppliers, employees, the government), they just do whatever they can to get their 4th private jet loaded with cocaine.


What labor is worth $5 an hour? A mentally disabled grocery bagger is worth more than that.
If someone isn't worth 10 bucks an hour in 2014 dollars then they are not working hard enough. If they want to work they will have to stop sucking at their job.
I agree with some of this, but I would add something very, very important:

Government regulation may well NOT be a solution simply because the Gov. was in many respects as much or more culpable in all that mess than any one private org.

The recent market events are a prime example of that. Under Clinton and with the cooperation of many so-called conservatives, banks were required to loan to people fitting xyz criteria as a certain percentage of their loan portfolios. Fannie and Freddie (quasi-gov) securitized those risky assets and thus exposed all of us with cash in stocks or bonds to their inherent flaws. You know the rest.

Anyway, my point here is that the Gov. can cause damage with the best of the corporate types. The guy who was all about getting rid of Glass-Stegal - Summers - was on the short list to run the Fed before Yellen got the job. Look up Glass-Stegal sometime.

So with the government we the idiotic people put in place, we stand a truly excellent chance of getting pretty idiotic regulations. And that can truly destroy lives.

Personally, I vote 10 dollar min wage. The hard reality is that keeping it at the current level when we are probably about to get nailed with inflation is going to squeeze many millions of people. And millions getting poorer will screw us all. We are pretty perilously close to really creating a great enlarged lower class that basically does not do much for the economy and a higher min wage will do a lot of avoid that without much pain on profits. I'm in favor of an increase simply because its probably going to hurt less than the alternative.
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Old 05-21-2014, 04:10 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenuge26 View Post
Which would you guys rather have? A higher minimum wage, or more unions? Because without a minimum wage, I'm sure a lot more places would unionize.

Pick your poison.
I have no problem with a workforce banding together to protect their own interests. In fact, if you are truly undervalued and committed to being compensated what you're worth then this should not even be that difficult. However, that would mean you would actually have to be providing good value or someone else in line is just going to step up an take your place for as much or less than you were getting paid.
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Old 05-21-2014, 04:21 PM   #35
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All this means is that 17 year olds will be able to afford miatas again.
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Old 05-21-2014, 04:24 PM   #36
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Unions...LOL...

Eliminating the minimum wage does many things.

It drops real wages.
It drops real prices.
It raises import prices relative to domestic prices.
It creates domestic jobs in lieu of import jobs.
It creates demand for labor.
It raises real wages relative to real prices.
It provides employers the option to pay their employees too little.
It provides employees who are paid too little the necessary motivation to start a competing company and hire domestic employees at a "fair" wage, competitive with the labor rates + shipping of the corporation who paid them too little.

Let me tell you this: If I was the head of a mega corporation, I would be a strong supporter of raising the minimum wage. A higher minimum wage indirectly creates powerful barriers to entry from competition. I can raise my prices to reflect the increase in domestic labor cost, but my foreign labor cost will remain unchanged.

The problem is not with "minimum wage"; the problem is that we are well into our era of entitlement as a country. We're at a point where we think that everyone should be entitled to single family housing, and everyone should be entitled to food, and everyone should be entitled to car, and everyone should be entitled to healthcare, and everyone should be entitled to a smartphone, and, and, and....

If we were to recognize the false entitlements we have cast upon ourselves, we would quickly realize that minimum wage is not the issue. Here's a quote that is NOT in the Declaration of Independence:
Quote:
that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Entitlements, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
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Old 05-21-2014, 04:28 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Sparetire View Post
What about the idea that stupid people should be able to make a living wage too? What if the only job available to a person who was stupid, but is now reformed and responsible, is flipping burgers?
How do you define a living wage? What are the standards that you have to meet to have a living wage? Standard living was very different in 1950 then it is in 2014.

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Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
Like I said, its a problem with business ethics. Until everybody can learn to not screw people, regulation is required.
Why do you believe that the people making the regulation are altruistic and not the same people with the same business ethics that run businesses? I will handily agree that people are greedy. That is true of business owners and politicians alike.
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Old 05-21-2014, 04:32 PM   #38
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Free Market principals are great. They are basically the only way we will ever have a sustainable civilization which is fine because at the end of the day they inevitably win regardless of what silly humans put on paper.

What about situations where we have more supply (labor) than demand (jobs)? Well, supply is incredibly cheap. And some does not get utilized.

Just one thing, you are talking about people. And joking aside, there are decent non-lazy human beings who don't have skills to set them above millions of others and while they are willing to work hard, their skills are common. So they get screwed. And it is not only within our power to mitigate that somewhat with a min wage, its also in our interest. That cash flows through the economy. And less desperate people usually means less crime, less cash incarcerating people, etc.

My opinion and the opinion of others who crunch numbers is that we can raise min wage and improve the economy as a result.
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Old 05-21-2014, 04:41 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
It provides employees who are paid too little the necessary motivation to start a competing company and hire domestic employees at a "fair" wage, competitive with the labor rates + shipping of the corporation who paid them too little.
lol, no.
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Old 05-21-2014, 04:42 PM   #40
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How do you define a living wage? What are the standards that you have to meet to have a living wage? Standard living was very different in 1950 then it is in 2014.
I define it as being able to live in an area that's got a murder rate less than about 5/100K/Yr, being able to feed yourself and a child or partner with food from a grocery store, being able to get to that store in some sane manner via public transport that does not take so long you lose working time, and being able to handle a minor medical issue if it should arise.

7.xx does not get you out of shitsville for 95% of the country.

Interesting read on impact of min wage.

http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/1560/1/WRA...t_twerp630.pdf
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