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View Poll Results: Should the Federal Minimum Wage be Raised?
No, those jobs are for teenagers and 2nd incomes. 58 67.44%
Yes, to about $10/Hr. 14 16.28%
Yes, to about $15/Hr. 11 12.79%
Yes, to $_____/Hr. 3 3.49%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-23-2014, 12:16 AM   #141
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There is a video I need to find that is suppose to show how easy it would be for Walmart to pay their employees a wage that would get the off welfare. By its own math it states that prices would merely rise 1.3% (or something close). Sounds good right? Except nominally it works out that consumers (read: taxpayers) are going to pay $4.5 billion more for goods to reduce their welfare tax burden by $300 million
...or, you know, $6.2 billion.
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Old 05-23-2014, 12:33 AM   #142
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...or, you know, $6.2 billion.
The video may have only been discussing food stamps. I don't really remember. However, the numbers make no difference to my point. Increasing the minimum wage is just another form of welfare so that specific argument is invalid. They would just be in the same position as before but they wouldn't be receiving their welfare directly from the state.
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Old 05-23-2014, 12:47 AM   #143
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The video may have only been discussing food stamps. I don't really remember. However, the numbers make no difference to my point. Increasing the minimum wage is just another form of welfare so that specific argument is invalid. They would just be in the same position as before but they wouldn't be receiving their welfare directly from the state.
Are you seriously arguing that you and I should be paying Billy Bob's welfare instead of the company "employing" him?

Sav's right btw. It would cost the consumer less (To the tunes of $billions) in welfare compared to increased consumer costs to force Walmart and other places to pay a living wage.

IIRC, for McDonald's to increase their minimum wage to $15 an hour would result in a price increase of around 15.3% across the board.

I need to read that study again, but basically it concluded there would be, at worst, a slight cost to consumers for McDonald's to raise their minimum wage to $15 an hour when you factor in welfare and other costs. At $10, we saved money.

The money's gotta come from somewhere, and it's more expensive for it to come from the government typically when it involves welfare programs. (Of course there are lots of exceptions, but in this particular case it's true)
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Old 05-23-2014, 01:19 AM   #144
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Are you seriously arguing that you and I should be paying Billy Bob's welfare instead of the company "employing" him?
I am actually making no argument for or against a minimum wage. I haven't stated an opinion either way in this entire thread. In this instance I am merely pointing out that a minimum wage increase is no different from a welfare. The money to pay someone more or for them to receive welfare is coming from taxpayers either way. They already had a job in order to benefit from the wage increase but there is no additional value being added to the system so what you have is wealth redistribution. Walmart or any other company is going to pass that to the consumer to maintain their profit margin which, for Walmart, is around 3-4% at the store level.

You can change the argument to whether or not the wealth redistribution is good or not but arguing a tax savings is stupid because you won't actually be saving any money. I also find it hilarious that people think freeing up extra welfare dollars means that money will be saved and not spent on new benefits.
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Old 05-23-2014, 01:30 AM   #145
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Walmart or any other company is going to pass that to the consumer to maintain their profit margin which, for Walmart, is around 3-4% at the store level.
3-4%? You just quoted that number at 1.3% three posts ago.

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You can change the argument to whether or not the wealth redistribution is good or not but arguing a tax savings is stupid because you won't actually be saving any money.
Last time I checked, $6.2 billion minus $4.5 billion is more than zero.

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I also find it hilarious that people think freeing up extra welfare dollars means that money will be saved and not spent on new benefits.
Worst argument yet. Why bother saving any money at all, ever, then? No efficiency gain is worth going after, no dollar is worth cutting, because it'll just get spent elsewhere, right?
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Old 05-23-2014, 01:56 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post

3-4%? You just quoted that number at 1.3% three posts ago.

Last time I checked, $6.2 billion minus $4.5 billion is more than zero.

Worst argument yet. Why bother saving any money at all, ever, then? No efficiency gain is worth going after, no dollar is worth cutting, because it'll just get spent elsewhere, right?
The 1.3% was a price increase. The 3-4% is a profit margin. Learn the difference. I can draw you a picture if it would make it easier.

The math for the $4.5 billion was regarding an amount of welfare the video stated was $300 million which obviously does not include all of the same programs as your $6.2 billion. See your earlier comment about extrapolating data outside of its intended range.

The argument I made is that you wouldn't end up saving money. I did not say the additional uses would not be beneficial.
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Old 05-23-2014, 07:48 AM   #147
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You're telling me this as if there's definitive evidence that altering the minimum wage has an effect on unemployment rates. There isn't.
I never once said that.

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I'll accept the argument that a higher rate creates a barrier to employment (and will thus slow job growth in a small way), but there's no way you're categorically convincing me of a positive correlation between unemployment and minimum wage. The data isn't there.
which is why i keep saying that is someone cares about unemployment, they should worry about other things than the 5% of workers getting paid min. wage.

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If you don't like welfare, you should love a minimum wage increase. It takes the burden of supporting the lowest tier of society off of the taxpayers and puts it directly onto the companies that use low labor costs to make profits.
This shouldn't be a burden for anyone.

someone else's misfortune is not a claim check for my success.

The choice to impose an unchosen burden, or involuntary servitude, is the choice to enslave under the guise of capitalism...

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Possibly upsetting the economy in what way? No effect on GDP, no concrete effect on unemployment. So what, then? Trade deficits? Your lips are moving, but nothing of any substance coming out. Show me data, not just bullshit rhetoric.
did I not say "what won't help"? and doesn't possibly assume "no concrete effect"?

so if I say to you: Sav, increasing min. wage only helps a handful of workers and doesn't tackle any real issue or solve any real problem. Will you still read I'm trying to argue that min. wage somehow can affect unemployment?

like you said, increasing min. wage has no effect on GDP or unemployment and it's only affecting 5% of the workforce. So why are we talking about it?
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:27 AM   #148
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like you said, increasing min. wage has no effect on GDP or unemployment and it's only affecting 5% of the workforce. So why are we talking about it?
Fallacy. From what I understand of what you've posted, and I've re-read it several times, ~5% is the number making exactly minimum wage, not the people making $minimum-wage to $10 - of which it will all directly affect, and then the people making $10 to $13, which it should impact some as well.

In addition, we're talking about it because it has the potential to save $Billions in public funds.
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:01 AM   #149
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yes that is true: only 5% of all the work force make minimum wage or below. The arguement is that it will help them, it's never been about the people making between, has it?

how does it have this potential?
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:03 AM   #150
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I love how the word $Billions gets thrown around for dramatic effect.
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:14 AM   #151
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**** making minimum wage higher. We need to lower the cost of going to school. I'm paying $3600 for an online class that is 6 weeks long. Maybe if we didn't have such a **** public school system in this country there wouldn't be so many dumb people stuck making minimum wage.
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:18 AM   #152
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Nah. Most dumb people choose to be dumb.

Expensive education will usually motivate you to take it more seriously and appreciate it, so in a way it is a good thing.
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:24 AM   #153
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That may have been true once upon a time, but now days even Two Guys in a Basement Online College is only "affordable" through student loans.
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:30 AM   #154
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Oh trust me I agree with you. I think the point I was trying to make though, is that even if you made it cheaper, of the people working min wage and complaining about it, a very small percentage would actually take advantage and better their lives with education.
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:37 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post

Now try to recall the worst service you ever received in a fast food establishment. Picture the most slovenly, disheveled, poorly groomed.......If you say the minimum wage should be $10+, you are saying that that person and the other million just like them are always worth $10 an hour. Always. Every hour of every day they are at work. And that you would hire all of them personally at that rate to work for you.

Can you? I can't. Their actual productivity is probably in negative numbers since the payroll taxes, worker's comp, and benefits are so expensive. Even at $2.56 an hour, some of them would be a liability. But you say give them $10 per hour?

You first.
No. Again, fire their asses. And if the laws make that so hard, then that's a solvable problem. CO is right-to-work thank god.

But I will play:

How about the guy at a highly recommended running store who gave approximately .45 ***** (it was definitely less than half a ****) about me when I went in there to spend $100+ (!) on shoes so I could run a marathon without grenading an ankle or knee again?

Clean shaven, professional looking, definitely not min wage. Dude shuffled me through there like my $100 was a pile of turd. I needed some expertise and help and had no clue and said so. I ended up with shoes that sort of worked for me, and a semi-grenaded left ankle again.

I have seen as many well paid ******** as I have low paid slackers.

Folks, I'm sorry and mean no offense, but a lot of you have shown you don't know what this landscape looks like. I have worked with people at min wage or damned close to it (meaning within .25 of it) who have worked their asses off, showed up on time, and basically got treated like ****. You do your job well because that's who you are, not the pay. One stupid *** job had us refusing sale of animals to people once in awhile because we knew from experience they would come back dead. You would not believe the idiotic people who buy pets (many of whom no-doubt made more than min wage) and kill them through negligence. And here's a bunch of students with about 10,000 more important things in their lives like their studies, the family/friends/significant others, taking **** from these jerks in order to be ethical and making min wage for their trouble. It would have been easier to just sell him the damned turtle. If we were 90% slackers, why didn't we?

Or my first job makes for a great example. Best damned job I ever had. Age 15, you could work for the county breaking trail and maintaining trail in the parks system (we have a fantastic setup in that county). I think it might have been below min wage at the time, I want to say like 5.15 an hour. Summer job only, no interfering with school. Swinging a pick and maddock in June/July/August sun all day, hike in all your food, water, medical, clothing etc. I would do that volunteer if I had a million bucks in the bank. We worked our asses off there to and loved it. My crew lead was a Marine and he embodied exactly the values we have expounded on here. Min wage.

My policy arguments have more or less been beaten on this, and I am not making any sort of macroeconomic point here. Maybe it should be raised, maybe not. I'll let better debaters than I hash that out. All I am saying here is that if you need to characterize a few million people in a crappy way to justify your economic policy ideal, maybe you need to rethink it. Plenty of damned decent employees make min wage. As in more than 1 in 10. And plenty don't get a raise or an insignificant one if they do. And plenty of non-min wage people are absolute crap.
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:37 AM   #156
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Nah. Most dumb people choose to be dumb.

Expensive education will usually motivate you to take it more seriously and appreciate it, so in a way it is a good thing.
lolwut. The majority of the kids at ASU are rich foreigners, rich white kids, or rich minorities. The rest are veterans who have the GI Bill paying their way. The rich kids having mommy and daddy or oil money paying their way don't care at all.

The cost of school should depend on your grades, the better grade you get, you get some of your money back.
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:40 AM   #157
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I see what you mean now. I was approaching it from a poor persons perspective lol
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:43 AM   #158
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IIRC, for McDonald's to increase their minimum wage to $15 an hour would result in a price increase of around 15.3% across the board.
Not arguing with you, but i find this kind of funny...

If the McChicken goes from $1 to $1.25 or $1.50 or whatever, ***** that Schit.... Im not willing to pay the extra just because some uneducated ******* behind the counter now makes $15.
If the minimum wage is say 7.50, and i Make say 12, with an associates degree.. they bump the minimum up to 10 per hour.. I guaranphuckentee that i wouldnt be getting my pay bumped up to 14.50 per hour... because i make more than minimum wage, the employer has no obligation whatsoever to raise my pay....... Therefore lumping me in the bottom of the bracket with everyone who makes minimum wage.
The cost of EVERYTHING goes up, to compensate for the employees making substantially more.... Making everything cost more for me, Phucking me in the end....

So, (im not political on either side, BUT) I ask all these Left wingers that are always like "Me ME MEEEEE" and not "us US USSS".... What about ME???

(this is by no means my personal case... i have a bachelors, and make substantially more than stated.... just looking from the point of view i was at just a few years ago. The increase in cost of everything due to minimum wage raise, without my pay being increased in accordance to the minimum wage raise, I would have more than likely had to drop out of school, and continue the rest of my life in the bottom bracket, never being able to climb out)

Minimum wage was sub-$5 in just the last 30 years... It sucked back then.... It sucks now...
Its MINIMUM wage for a reason
But the increase of minimum wage over the years Helped absolutely NOTHING and NOBODY... But it DID increase inflation... the cost of EVERYTHING over the years has skyrocketed... in correlation with pay raise.

$10 an hour will put everybody who makes it, in the SAME boat as everyone who makes $7.50 right now. Maybe not right away, but give it just maybe 2 years... after they have all gone out and bought RIMZ for their donk, and Big AZZ 500 inch Flatscreens with 3D. They will live the high life for a little while... but they will be right back in the boat they are in now quickly... just like all those ******* multi-million dollar lottery winners who are now broke and/or homeless. No reason for that, but it happens all the time. lol
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:44 AM   #159
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I see what you mean now. I was approaching it from a poor persons perspective lol
hahaha, same here
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:45 AM   #160
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No. Again, fire their asses. And if the laws make that so hard, then that's a solvable problem. CO is right-to-work thank god.

But I will play:

How about the guy at a highly recommended running store who gave approximately .45 ***** (it was definitely less than half a ****) about me when I went in there to spend $100+ (!) on shoes so I could run a marathon without grenading an ankle or knee again?

Clean shaven, professional looking, definitely not min wage. Dude shuffled me through there like my $100 was a pile of turd. I needed some expertise and help and had no clue and said so. I ended up with shoes that sort of worked for me, and a semi-grenaded left ankle again.

I have seen as many well paid ******** as I have low paid slackers.

Folks, I'm sorry and mean no offense, but a lot of you have shown you don't know what this landscape looks like. I have worked with people at min wage or damned close to it (meaning within .25 of it) who have worked their asses off, showed up on time, and basically got treated like ****. You do your job well because that's who you are, not the pay. One stupid *** job had us refusing sale of animals to people once in awhile because we knew from experience they would come back dead. You would not believe the idiotic people who buy pets (many of whom no-doubt made more than min wage) and kill them through negligence. And here's a bunch of students with about 10,000 more important things in their lives like their studies, the family/friends/significant others, taking **** from these jerks in order to be ethical and making min wage for their trouble. It would have been easier to just sell him the damned turtle. If we were 90% slackers, why didn't we?

Or my first job makes for a great example. Best damned job I ever had. Age 15, you could work for the county breaking trail and maintaining trail in the parks system (we have a fantastic setup in that county). I think it might have been below min wage at the time, I want to say like 5.15 an hour. Summer job only, no interfering with school. Swinging a pick and maddock in June/July/August sun all day, hike in all your food, water, medical, clothing etc. I would do that volunteer if I had a million bucks in the bank. We worked our asses off there to and loved it. My crew lead was a Marine and he embodied exactly the values we have expounded on here. Min wage.

My policy arguments have more or less been beaten on this, and I am not making any sort of macroeconomic point here. Maybe it should be raised, maybe not. I'll let better debaters than I hash that out. All I am saying here is that if you need to characterize a few million people in a crappy way to justify your economic policy ideal, maybe you need to rethink it. Plenty of damned decent employees make min wage. As in more than 1 in 10. And plenty don't get a raise or an insignificant one if they do. And plenty of non-min wage people are absolute crap.
You sound like someone that won't be a min wage employee all his life.

And raising or lowering min wage for you now won't really impact that.

Maybe I'm just crazy though.
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