Minimum Wage - Should It Be Raised? How Far? - Page 6 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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View Poll Results: Should the Federal Minimum Wage be Raised?
No, those jobs are for teenagers and 2nd incomes. 51 66.23%
Yes, to about $10/Hr. 12 15.58%
Yes, to about $15/Hr. 11 14.29%
Yes, to $_____/Hr. 3 3.90%
Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-22-2014, 01:17 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Although I don't really have a horse in this race beyond lulz on this topic and that a min wage of some sort needs to exist, I just wanted to point out that even superficial analysis demonstrates there is no correlation to minimum wage and employment.

I can do an in-depth statistical analysis on the data, but there's only one datapoint of numerous datapoints in your given data that fully supports your assertion, and one datapoint that partially supports your assertion. A simpler answer then "OMG MINIMUM WAIIGE" may be "health of the economy" for that one, as there are several datapoints that contradict your assertion but would support a poor economy being a direct cause of unemployment. Then again, it could be both.

At best, your evidence is extremely weak to come to the conclusion you have came to based on the data presented, Joe. I'm not saying that you are wrong, mind you, just hat your posted evidence does not support your conclusions.
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Old 05-22-2014, 01:46 PM   #102
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Blaen, I'm thinking the same thing.
I even considered running the data in minitab along with some other data to look for this definitive "statistically significant" correlation (If it really is significant, I wonder at what alpha?). But I decided not to bother. It is clear that this conversation is not going to go anywhere.

Last edited by Full_Tilt_Boogie; 05-22-2014 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 05-22-2014, 02:11 PM   #103
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It's right there in the study that I linked to. Page 3, I think. You must have missed the big chart somehow.


You know, I have apologize and eat some crow. I don't have the capability to look at the raw data, but barring that being cherry picked or wrong that actually has some weight. And for the strength in those numbers, it would have to be damned messed up nullify the conclusions. My BS meter tripped based on who EPI is rather than the data itself.

My own experience back in the day is not typical I guess. Min wage people do see more wage growth than I thought.

I will point out though that the same org has a study on proposals for 10.10 and all:

Raising the Federal Minimum Wage to $10.10 Would Lift Wages for Millions and Provide a Modest Economic Boost | Economic Policy Institute

Which then brings me to Brain's comments, which also make a good point along with the data in that earlier epi study. I though we had more min wage people.
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Old 05-22-2014, 02:33 PM   #104
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why stop at $10? why not $25?

Swiss Voters Defeat $24.65 Minimum Wage by a Wide Margin
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Old 05-22-2014, 02:36 PM   #105
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Old 05-22-2014, 03:12 PM   #106
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I wonder what a loaf of bread would cost if nobody with cash had less than 50k to spend.

I saw an article where some lady was talking about working 40 hours a week and equating it to slavery.

I get that its a relative thing. But I think economically the whole country may benefit from a min wage increase. Mostly because with our FUBARed policies lately we have already felt or will feel the pain that a increase might theoretically cause anyway.
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Old 05-22-2014, 03:18 PM   #107
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So long as this guy is still holding this sign, the minimum wage is not too low:

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Minimum Wage - Should It Be Raised? How Far?-forsee.jpg  
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Old 05-22-2014, 03:20 PM   #108
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I drive a miata.

It sucks to live in poverty like this.

I need $200/hour just for bare essentials
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Old 05-22-2014, 03:24 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Sparetire View Post
Mostly because with our FUBARed policies lately we have already felt or will feel the pain that a increase might theoretically cause anyway.
What if i were to tell you that min. wage is a FUBARed policy, and that fixing a FUBARed policy with another FUBARed policy is not a smart way of doing things.

Like, we've been doing this min wage thing since what 1938?

Couldn't we try it just once, to eliminate it altogether is just see how it worked?

how many times do we have to raise it for it to work like you want? and how many countless years of the poor staying poor and people still living in poverty that you'll decide that continuing to do the same thing over and over again and getting no results may not be the best solution?


I know, maybe if we wage war on poverty that will fix it! or maybe some sort of New relief, recovery, reform Deal.
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Old 05-22-2014, 03:25 PM   #110
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What if i were to tell you that min. wage is a FUBARed policy, and that fixing a FUBARed policy with another FUBARed policy is not a smart way of doing things.
Because that's just how we roll?

Edit: No, I see your point. I may well be dead wrong on this. But absent the possibility of actually fixing anything, economic sedatives seem like a good idea to me.
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Old 05-22-2014, 03:27 PM   #111
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Just yell at your poverty until it finally gives in and you prosper.
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Old 05-22-2014, 03:28 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
I need $200/hour just for bare essentials

correction, you need $165/hour for bare essentials, everyone else that doesn't work needs that $35/hour you work for but don't actually need/deserve.

if you work 40 hours a week, for 52 weeks, minus 11 holidays, you're not actually working 1640 hours a year, but 1353 hours. The rest you work for free cause you're such a nice guy.
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Old 05-22-2014, 03:31 PM   #113
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So, are you $10+ proponents willing to personally hire the dumbest five mouthbreathers from CR at $10 an hour to work for you?

Or are you simply saying someone else should be forced to hire them at those rates but you are too good to do it yourself with your own money?
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Old 05-22-2014, 03:32 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Sparetire View Post
Because that's just how we roll?

Edit: No, I see your point. I may well be dead wrong on this. But absent the possibility of actually fixing anything, economic sedatives seem like a good idea to me.
all we do is pass laws that are supposed to save to world and help the middle class; yet to see it happen.
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Old 05-22-2014, 04:08 PM   #115
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So, are you $10+ proponents willing to personally hire the dumbest five mouthbreathers from CR at $10 an hour to work for you?

Or are you simply saying someone else should be forced to hire them at those rates but you are too good to do it yourself with your own money?
Don't hire the mouth-breathers. It's still a buyers market in terms of people competing for jobs.

And I've seen some pretty dumb people be some pretty good employees. Yours truly included depending on the day.
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Old 05-22-2014, 04:56 PM   #116
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Minimum wage workers account for 4.7 percent of hourly paid workers in 2012

Like I said: non-issue.
I get your point, but the people that would be directly affected are anyone making less than the proposed minimum wage. I have no idea how big that group is, but obviously it's bigger than those making the current minimum wage.

Around here the defacto minimum wage seems to be $8/hr. It's the typical starting wage for temp workers, which is all that many medium size companies are hiring off the streets.

Those temp workers can get a raise by being hired full time, which does happen for some, but it cannot be counted on by everyone that shows up everyday and does their job like they're supposed to. There's a huge pool of workers in this area that remain temp for years simply because the employers don't require anything more.

An irony is that the employers are paying the temp agencies ~$12/hr for the $8/hr workers.

In the end, I'm not arguing one way or the other, just trying to maintain some perspective.
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Old 05-22-2014, 05:01 PM   #117
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Don't hire the mouth-breathers. It's still a buyers market in terms of people competing for jobs.

And I've seen some pretty dumb people be some pretty good employees. Yours truly included depending on the day.
for every 1 decent person there are 9 mouth breathers or more.
the odds of not ending up with at least a couple are fairly slim

and with all the pathetic laws (at least here in CA) its actually a whole lot more difficult to fire someone than most people think
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Old 05-22-2014, 05:36 PM   #118
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I didn't have a job through high school that paid minimum wage...

My first job ever was 75 cents over minimum wage. That literally required that I walk into a retailer with a "now hiring" sign and turn in an application while wearing a no-logo T-shirt, properly fitting shorts, and a pair of decent tennis shoes with a clean haircut, high school baby face, and freshly showered. The on duty manager interviewed me on the spot, and the store manager invited me back for an interview 2 days later. I had zero work experience, but I showed up early to the interview, with a collared shirt, slacks, and non-athletic shoes. She offered me a job at the end of the interview for 75 cents over the minimum wage. A year later, I applied for a job at Best buy. The raise was $1/hour.

Through college, my unrelated summer jobs paid $10, $12, then $15 per hour. They were all generally low skill jobs with the exception of the $15/hour internship. Unskilled jobs require that you show up on time, do your job as instructed, occasionally stay an extra hour or two to cover for someone else, and generally, for about 8 hours a day, put your employer's interests above your own.

After college I had trouble finding work until a temp agency stuck me with a box manufacturing plant. It was back to the lowly $7.50/hour again because temp agency, and it took the company about a month to decide that I needed a promotion and a raise. On the day that I started the new position, I interviewed for another low-skilled job. I was offered the job at $15/hour, which I gladly took. I quickly earned a raise to about $16.80 because for about 8 hours a day, I generally put the interests of my employer above my own. My employer appreciated that.

I have been generally putting the interests of my employer above my own for about 8 hours a day for about a decade and a half now, while simultaneously always keeping my ears and eyes open for the next big opportunity, and it has worked wonders for my upward mobility. It is imperative that anyone wanting more money do both of these things. Not always looking out for the next big outside opportunity is the equivalent of telling your boss "I'd love to continue working for you for minimum wage" - not putting your employers interest above your own is about as solid as career suicide gets.

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Old 05-22-2014, 05:40 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
for every 1 decent person there are 9 mouth breathers or more.
I'd say you're off by at least a factor of two.


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and with all the pathetic laws (at least here in CA) its actually a whole lot more difficult to fire someone than most people think
At wife's last job they had a mentally handicapped guy. He knew it was nearly impossible to fire him, so he did as little as possible. Fortunately for them, he was working in food service, and shortcuts to sanitation are not allowed. So, the manager documented everything via phone video, so as to be able to get rid of the dead weight. Still took months.
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Old 05-22-2014, 05:43 PM   #120
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I get your point, but the people that would be directly affected are anyone making less than the proposed minimum wage. I have no idea how big that group is, but obviously it's bigger than those making the current minimum wage.

that 4.7% number accounts for all worker making min. wage OR below... It's not a big group of workers at all--It represents a few high school drop outs. There are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many other things to worry about before worrying about 3.6 million workers that work at shitty jobs.

defacto min wage is called market value.
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