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Old 03-19-2013, 03:37 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by thenuge26 View Post
On the other hand, for ~$600 there is no performance upgrade that comes anywhere near the price/performance of a 1.8 upgrade.

If you are going to shell out $4000+ for a turbo setup, it would be silly to not spend another $600 for a 1.8.
I agree it would be silly to shell out $4k for a turbo setup and not at least consider the 1.8 swap.

However:

My stock '01 VVT dyno'd 108.5 hp on a dyno dynamics dyno @ 3400' altitude, recently Grassroots motorsports made 110 horpower on a dynojet with a 1.6 using '99 Miata injectors and an RX-7 MAF, on an otherwise stock 1.6, I think the injectors were $40 (+cleaning) plus the cost of a used RX-7 MAF, a lot cheaper than $600 plus the labour to do the 1.8 swap for the same horsepower.

Clearly the 1.8 is the better choice if you want 250+ horsepower, but then again arguably you should be buying an '01 plus (or at least a '99 up) to begin with so you can get sport brakes, better suspension geometry, LSD, 6 speed, VVT, stiffer chassis... Again my point here is that not everyone wants the same thing, for a lot of people a basic FM or BEGI kit, or a diy using their hard parts (could be done for under $2500), is a viable alternative that will give good street performance and can be done for a relatively low cost.

Jim
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:40 PM   #62
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Some specifics then, look at fluffy pillows dyno in the dyno section. on an fm manifold and sr20 turbo with ms2 and mediocre exhaust he made 125lb/[email protected], 150lb/[email protected] and 200lb/ft from 4000rpm, that's my idea of a budget build...

Jim
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you noticed all the skeptisim on his numbers right?

there was no way he's making 215hp on that turbo with that amount of boost. 60% DC on 460cc injectors is closer to 150rwhp dynojet. it takes me ~90% DC on 460cc injectors to make ~230rwhp dynojet.

making 150rwtq (dynojet) by 3000RPM is a great benchmark for the absolute bare minimum you want out of your setup; good luck.

it's actually funny you picked that bogus dyno plot of any to gravitate to, and ignore the ones i posted, as that plot would be about what you'd expect from a low boost 1.8L setup.
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:43 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by jimj64 View Post
My stock '01 VVT dyno'd 108.5 hp on a dyno dynamics dyno @ 3400' altitude, recently Grassroots motorsports made 110 horpower on a dynojet with a 1.6 using '99 Miata injectors and an RX-7 MAF, on an otherwise stock 1.6, I think the injectors were $40 (+cleaning) plus the cost of a used RX-7 MAF, a lot cheaper than $600 plus the labour to do the 1.8 swap for the same horsepower.
a dyno dynamics outputs about 12-16% lower than a dynojet; now you're just trolling. it's not even about peak numbers, it's about area under curve, this effect is furthered when coupled with a turbo.

you're just being annoying now, it's not even fun.

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but then again arguably you should be buying an '01 plus (or at least a '99 up) to begin with so you can get sport brakes, better suspension geometry, LSD, 6 speed, VVT, stiffer chassis...
yes, actually you should get a +01 over any other miata, for all those reasons.



IB4 "revvy" is mentioned.
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:54 PM   #64
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No, they don't. The list of parts for a high-horsepower build is twice as long. My list is a 200-220whp setup.
Sav, you don't need a full exhaust or Toyota/LS coils to make 200-220 whp, and according to Corky Bell a healthy stock fuel pump will do 250whp

buy an FM manifold kit for $750 or a BEGI manifold/downpipe for $694, a DIY PNP kit based on the MS2 from Bell for $425, a good used T25 or churbo on ebay for a few hundred, some RX-7 injectors, an innovate wideband and an ebay intercooler and you have a good reliable turbo kit for around $2K. I am not suggesting this is a top of the line option, but it is certainly good quality and sufficient for 200-220 whp.

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Old 03-19-2013, 03:57 PM   #65
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if you dont put a full exhaust on your 1.6L and expect 150rwtq by 3K, you're wet dreaming. That's an important number to hit if you don't want ****-poor performance compared to your dad's buick lesabre.
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:58 PM   #66
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it's actually funny you picked that bogus dyno plot of any to gravitate to, and ignore the ones i posted, as that plot would be about what you'd expect from a low boost 1.8L setup.
It's only bogus because it doesn't fit with you're argument, I don't believe he made those numbers on 7psi, but with all due respect it's just as believable as [email protected] on an EFR6258 and you never blinked at that one.

Are you going to ban me again now just because I have the ***** to disagree with you?

Jim
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:59 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by jimj64 View Post
My stock '01 VVT dyno'd 108.5 hp on a dyno dynamics dyno @ 3400' altitude, recently Grassroots motorsports made 110 horpower on a dynojet with a 1.6 using '99 Miata injectors and an RX-7 MAF, on an otherwise stock 1.6, I think the injectors were $40 (+cleaning) plus the cost of a used RX-7 MAF, a lot cheaper than $600 plus the labour to do the 1.8 swap for the same horsepower.
Cool. I'm still confused as to what your completely untuned motor has to do with anything. If you are trying to argue that a 1.8 swap isn't the best performance-per-dollar upgrade you can do, there is plenty of data that proves you wrong.

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but with all due respect it's just as believable as [email protected] on an EFR6258 and you never blinked at that one.
IIRC 99MX5 threw a rod @9psi, so [email protected] seems about right.
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:59 PM   #68
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Are you going to ban me again now just because I have the ***** to disagree with you?

Jim


yes.
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:01 PM   #69
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if you dont put a full exhaust on your 1.6L and expect 150rwtq by 3K, you're wet dreaming. That's an important number to hit if you don't want ****-poor performance compared to your dad's buick lesabre.
Now your just being a dick, I said you didn't need it to make 200whp, you changed it all around to 150 [email protected] rpm so you could twist my words and make my statement look wrong. My comment included nothing about making a certain amount of torque by a certain rpm, neither did Savington for that matter.

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Old 03-19-2013, 04:01 PM   #70
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Are you going to ban me again now just because I have the ***** to disagree with you?

Jim
Have you always been a huge ***** or is this something new?
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:02 PM   #71
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yes.
Just proves what a childish little dick you are, poor baby can't stand it when someone stands up to him.
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:03 PM   #72
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Have you always been a huge ***** or is this something new?
It's new, just because he was a whiney little baby and banned me the last time I disagreed with him
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:06 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by thenuge26 View Post
Cool. I'm still confused as to what your completely untuned motor has to do with anything. If you are trying to argue that a 1.8 swap isn't the best performance-per-dollar upgrade you can do, there is plenty of data that proves you wrong.



IIRC 99MX5 threw a rod @9psi, so [email protected] seems about right.
Come on, 310 whp @ 12 psi is total bullshit, at 18-20psi sure but no way at 12. Throwing a rod has nothing to do with how much boost he was running, there are lot's of reasons rods go, and others have lost rods at lower power levels.

Jim
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:07 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by jimj64 View Post
It's only bogus because it doesn't fit with you're argument, I don't believe he made those numbers on 7psi, but with all due respect it's just as believable as [email protected] on an EFR6258 and you never blinked at that one.
no, it's because I have had my miata strapped to a dyno over 15 times, and in this time I've seen and collected a robust collection of other members dyno runs as well.

7psi with the sr20 t25 hiting 210rwhp on a 1.6L is simply not plasiable. not because it fits with my argument, because that's reality. It is wasn't just me who questioned the dyno numbers, every other person in that thread did as well.

[email protected]13.5psi on the EFR6258 is believeable because it was done a local dynojet, he had logs to correspond with the dyno pull, and has a well documented setup. I've seen similar numbers on a 2560 at 14psi and soviets EFR numbers are very similar as well. ehold the power of more displacement...Ari is also not some random dude who posted here for the first time and has zero creditbility. you'll also notice that I still don't believe Nitrodann's 325rwhp at 25psi number...

it's called experience, something in your 45 long years you should have picked up by now...but then again you probably work minimum wage considering how much you care about piecing together a cheap POS setup using na rx7 AFM and lack any knowledge gained from this website. i bet your boss hates you but he cant fire you because you'll claim it's because youre gay.

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Old 03-19-2013, 04:14 PM   #75
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it's called experience, something in your 45 long years you should have picked up by now...but then again you probably work minimum wage considering how much you care about piecing together a cheap POS setup using na rx7 AFM and lack any knowledge gained from this website. i bet your boss hates you but he cant fire you because you'll claim it's because youre gay.
You forgot where he compared 2 different miatas on different types of dynos at different elevations and said the hp being the same is good.
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:16 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by jimj64 View Post
Come on, 310 whp @ 12 psi is total bullshit, at 18-20psi sure but no way at 12. Throwing a rod has nothing to do with how much boost he was running, there are lot's of reasons rods go, and others have lost rods at lower power levels.

Jim
Lets think about this for a minute, shall we? Lets just say he made [email protected], seem believable? It does for me, the 6258 has a larger turbine AND compressor than the popular GT2560.

So hold that 233wtq all the way to 7000rpm and we get 310hp. 233*7000/5250 = 310.
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:16 PM   #77
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no, it's because I have had my miata strapped to a dyno over 15 times, in this time I've seen and collected a robust collection of other members dyno runs as well.

7psi with the sr20 t25 hiting 210rwhp on a 1.6L is simply not plasiable. not because it fits with my argument, because that's reality. It is wasn't just me who questioned the dyno numbers, every other person in that thread did as well.

[email protected] on the EFR6258 is believeable because it was done a local dynojet, he had logs to correspond with the dyno pull, has a well documented setup, repeated those dyno plots with his bigger turbo, and proved the power on the 1/4 strip. (wait are we talking about 99mx5 or soviet?)

it's called experience, something in your 45 long years you should have picked up by now...but then again you probably work minimum wage considering how much you care about piecing together a POS setup using a rx7 AFM.
First off I couldn't care less about the RX-7 MAF, it was merely an example of what can be done on a budget...

How much money have you put into your Miata *******? My Miata including the cost of the car now has around $22K in it, all paid for in cash, I own outright 6 quads, 3 street bikes a Lexus GS300 with a 2JZ-FTE swapped in, an 07 Chev 2500, a 69 Fiat 850, a Lexus ES300 a 34 Dutchmen trailer and my 1200 sq ft house, and I have over $600,000 in a pension plan lets see you do that on a minimum wage job **** head.

It's funny how you always resort to personal attacks when you get called out. Stick to the facts you whiney little brat.

Jim
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:19 PM   #78
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Lets think about this for a minute, shall we? Lets just say he made [email protected], seem believable? It does for me, the 6258 has a larger turbine AND compressor than the popular GT2560.

So hold that 233wtq all the way to 7000rpm and we get 310hp. 233*7000/5250 = 310.
233 wheel torque at 9psi seems pretty unrealistic to me too. So does holding a completely flat torque curve to 7000, even the square top manifold tapers a little by then. Not mention that it will take more than 3 additional psi to hold that torque to 7000rpm.

Please explain why he was able to make similar horsepower numbers to other Miatas with EFR6258's at way lower boost, and the square top manifold doesn't account for that much difference? Don't compare it to GT2560's the EFR's are different turbos, they are much more efficient at higher pressure ratios and will flow more than the Garrett, that doesn't mean they will make way more power at minimal boost pressure.
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:20 PM   #79
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First off I couldn't care less about the RX-7 MAF, it was merely an example of what can be done on a budget...

How much money have you put into your Miata *******? My Miata including the cost of the car now has around $22K in it, all paid for in cash, I own outright 6 quads, 3 street bikes a Lexus GS300 with a 2JZ-FTE swapped in, an 07 Chev 2500, a 69 Fiat 850, a Lexus ES300 a 34 Dutchmen trailer and my 1200 sq ft house, and I have over $600,000 in a pension plan lets see you do that on a minimum wage job **** head.

It's funny how you always resort to personal attacks when you get called out. Stick to the facts you whiney little brat.

Jim
Oh my god. :bow: and here I only own a prelude, outright.

I didn't put much money into my miata because it has a 1.6L and it makes 240rwhp so it's the absolute best setup ever. My miata is the benchmark that others try to acheive here at mt.net and the eptiome of the perfect turboed miata: floppy dick chassis and lack of low end.




You're the reason everyone hates Canadians. I resort to insults because logic doesn't work on you.

When you start sticking to facts, I will go back to it. So far all you've said is a 1.6L is fun at 200rwhp. that is fact I never really disagreed with that. But I've given plenty of reasons why a small investment in a new block is a smart choice over going start to turboing a 1.6L where it's hard start over from when you realize it's a sub-par setup in comparison. Here you are with Jay Leno's garage and god forbid we suggest that it would be wise to start with a better platform for significant performance gains for very little extra investment.

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Then explain why he was able to make similar horsepower numbers to other Miatas with EFR6258's at way lower boost? Don't compare it to GT2560's the EFR's are different turbos, they are much more efficient at higher pressure ratios and will flow more than the Garrett, that doesn't mean they will make way more power at minimal boost pressure.
EFR > Garrett Garrett wheels havent changed since like 1970. The GTX wheel is the newest thing they've done in 20 years. EFR setups keep proving this time and time again.

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Old 03-19-2013, 04:24 PM   #80
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Oh my god. you're so cool!




you're the reason everyone hatres Canadians.
Oooh, careful you might hurt my feelingss....... yeah right
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