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DIY Turbo Discussion greddy on a 1.8? homebrew kit?

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Old 08-26-2006, 08:51 PM   #1
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Default New project begun, gurus look here!!!

OK Boys, this is it... time to dive in! Today with the purchase of a junkyard RX7 AFM now I can say I've officially started my turbo project.
Braineak, bripab007, 92BlackandTan, Loki, RicanMiataRacer, KFJ, and a few others, you guys are both my heroes and nemesi', nemesis's, nemesises... you know what I mean. I think I have about $1500 to spend.

Here is my plan:
Bipes
Begi AFPR
RX7 AFM
Walbro 190hp
Ebay FMIC, 28x7x2.5 under rad piping(for now)
DIY Dual Feed Fuel Rail
BOV- LOTS OF DEBATE HERE!!! Wouldn't mind VTA but must be somewhat quiet(GreddyTypeS too loud... think stealth) and not disrupt idle. If I must recirc, I think Bosch is just fine.
MBC- lots of under $100 options, but I think I need the **** in the cockpit... can I do a decent quality MBC with cockpit adjustability for under $100?
Injectors- Some guys are running as high as 330's w/above modifications... I don't think I need to. I think 305's will be fine as long as I manage the idle correctly.
If I keep my eyes open and am quick, I think I can source all of the above for about $800

I'm looking for supercharger-type power delivery w/ boost starting around 2000rpm and full around 3000rpm... My target is 180rwhp and I know I can get that w/8-9lbs of boost. Cost is a major factor, used will probably be my only route. I can manage my "boost bug"... I only want 180hp. GUYS WHO KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT, WHAT IS YOU BEST RECOMMENDATION FOR TURBO/MANI/DP given my needs, setup, and keeping me around $700 if possible. If $700 just isn't enough, what are we talking about $$$wise with your suggestion.

Again, I've been searching and reading everything the internet has to offer on turbocharging a Miata and I still don't know a few things. Is it unrealistic to think I can do this for around $1500?

Thanks for your help, long post I know, but it's all there!

Off topic- I'm looking for a webhost with an easy-to-use sitebuilder... standard hobby-type website for my toys and projects. Any suggestions.

PS, I'm ready to start buying, if you've got something that fits my bill, please PM me.
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Old 08-26-2006, 09:27 PM   #2
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Just a few thoughts if cost is the primary issue...

1) Bosch BOV + one way check valve from Lowes/HD will let you run VTA and give a decent (not great) BOV whoosh for around $25. A bunch of old timers have run this way (myself included) without any idle issues. You can always upgrade later. This leaves you with more $ to spend on the turbo/DP/manifold.

2) In the beginning, depending upon the turbo, you may be able to achieve 8ish psi by just adjusting/shimming the wastegate. Granted this won't allow in car adjustibility, but it costs $0 which allows you to spend more elsewhere and you can always get a better mbc/ebc later

3) For 8-9psi, with the BEGI afpr + fuel pump, you should be fine with just 1.8 injectors which will save you from having to deal with idle issues. FWIW, the old FM I kits ran 8 psi on the smaller 1.6 injectors with the begi afpr + Pierburg fuel pump so I can't see why you wouldn't be able to do it with 1.8 injectors. I ran 8psi on 1.6 injectors without any problems. It was when I tried to up the boost that they ran out of headroom. They run ~$40.

As for turbo/DP/manifold, I think the current best bang for the buck manifold/DP setup is from BEGI. DP is $285 for mild steel and manifold is $439. Probably best bet is to get one for a T25 turbo which you should be able to pickup a pretty good one for relatively cheap ~$200. Total price of ~$925. I know that's more than you want to spend, but you get some pretty damn nice stuff with BEGI. T25 would also give you the earlier spool that you desire as well. Just some thoughts....

p.s. I don't know what I am doing, nor am I a guru, but I answered your post anyway.
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Old 08-26-2006, 11:25 PM   #3
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tom is right.

i ran that style of BOV on my greddy kit. it was ok, nothing great. i think recirc is really the way to go, tho.

i think the begi mani is the best one out there, off the shelf. i wonder if old fm/begi manifolds will be available as the new kits come into play? people changing them out and what not...

i think picking up a new mani and dp will cost $700 alone. i like the t25, but you're going to have learn/research A/Rs and compression maps to get the performance you want. i picked mine up relatively cheap.

i few things i'm thinking about for what you want (cost and responsiveness):

with a begi or hks t25 manifold, you might be able to use a dsm t25 turbo (i'm not sure what the mounting flange looks like tho) and have a custom dp fabricated.

you could use a t3 off a saab (it's very small and spools VERY fast.), find out if begi makes a t3 manifold/dp for it.

find a more universal, small t3 and get a mani and dp from begi like braineak did.

i agree with tom about the injectors. for your price point and power target, you can run the 1.8 injectors with a used AFPR and bipes and still be very, very safe.

a gt20 turbo would spool really fast, but mating it to a manifold and dp may cost you as it's not really common and may require some custom stuff.

i'm not sure you want an MBC in the cockpit. you're going to want to set it and forget it. shimming, bleeder valve, or make your own mbc that is in the engine bay may be the best and most cost effective option. if you run it into the cockpit, it's farther from the pressure source (turbo) and may be a little delayed to respond.

if you WANT to use fm/begi stuff, you can find it used. you have to be patient and know what to look for. after my greddy kit, i learned it's better to have everthing you need AND want before installing it, otherwise you get into a situation where you GOTTA have it, out of need or desire. just make some really detailed open lists. it makes it easier and you won't believe the small stuff you forget about.
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Old 08-27-2006, 01:07 AM   #4
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Two awesome responses... saving me money already.
Issues solved:
BOV I will use a Bosch VTA setup as Tom described.
INJECTORS I will use 1.8's. I assume I'll want any used set I buy to be flow tested and cleaned... My search just now revealed nothing, but what chain establishments will test and clean injectors, or will I have to take them to a pro shop?
TURBO/MANI/DP I assumed most people would point me towards a Begi mani/DP and compatible T25. Unless someone says another route is significanlty better or I can get the same quality and performance cheaper, that is my current direction... used of course. We'll see if the new products result in some used ones entering the market. Also, will most T25's be able to clock so that the compressor outlet is facing down, like Braineaks T3s60?

Remaining issue:
MBC Correct my possible misunderstanding about MBC's. The vacuum lines to the individual components of the turbo system should be as short as the install allows. So placing the MBC itself somewhere in the engine bay is the idea... but I see kits that include a remote **** that is cable actuated so you can control it from the cabin. I was under the impression based on reading here about how MBC's work: http://www.boostcontroller.com/display_page.php?i=21 that an MBC allowed you to esentially set boost on the fly. For day-to-day driving, maybe just a couple psi will do me fine... but for the occasional stoplight or short freeway entrance, just turn the **** to warp... afterward, back to impulse speed. Am I correct?

Side issue: At some point I'm going to need a dyno and a "tuner" to check things over and adjust my stuff. Having never dealt with a tuner and hearing more horror stories than successes, anybody know a good shop in Hampton Roads?
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Old 08-27-2006, 01:37 AM   #5
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i've had three different set of injectors cleaned and balanced here. very good work. it's about $100. they are on the east coast, too.

garrett t25s can be clocked like braineak's.

personally, i don't like the idea of messing with an in-cabin MBC. it just seems like too much room for error then boom!

i haven't lived in va in about 6 years, so i can't help you there. maybe someone at the tidewater sports car club can help.
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Old 08-27-2006, 01:46 AM   #6
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So I did have the MBC theory right? But based on suggestion, probably better to save it for down the road. OK. Thanks KFJ... now go to bed!
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Old 08-27-2006, 07:46 AM   #7
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Cruzinperformance will flow test and balance your injectors for like $60 including shipping. Olderguy and mach929 have used him with good results. I plan on sending my larger injectors there.

As for am cabin adjusted mbc, I think the hallman mbc has a cable based kit for keeping the vac lines short but allowing adjustibility. On a side note, much be worth waiting for the ebc that briap007 mentioned in an earlier post.

You can at least get a pretty decent street tune based on the old FM I kit instructions and a fuel pressure gauge (see popvii pages for a cheap homemade one). It'll set the car up a bit on the rich side, but it'll hold you over until you can hit the dyno. Tuning is relatively "easy" since you only have three things to adjust: the base fuel pressure, the rate of rise fuel pressure in boost, and the rx-7 afm spring. I guess after you get fueling right, you can also mess with the bipes a little. Should be about 1 hour on the dyno. ~$100-$175 depending upon the dyno.
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Old 08-27-2006, 02:01 PM   #8
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a bov is not absolutly necesssary if you wanta chaep brand new turbo i have a td04-15g brand new for 250 bucks. Drop me a PM. you could get a Tony dp and begi mani and end up with a nice setup or a nice megan racing 16g combo sounds nie as well. The 305's shoudl take about 3-4 clicks to the tight to idle and run correctly. I dont supose i can talk you into water injection as well.
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Old 08-27-2006, 02:45 PM   #9
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I looked at the specs of that turbo and I think I would be sacrificing some spool for top-end I'll never use. I've also emailed Begi and hopefully Monday morning will have one of their leftover T25 mani's en-route... so I am looking for a cheap T25 and DP. Does Tony make one to fit. I think I'll also ditch my cat and go with a TP as I'm in the military and don't need smog checks here in Va.

Here's another thing I thought of: I'm sure there's a formula, but I went to a state school. It was said that 305's are overkill for my power needs. If I went with 305's, would I still need the Walbro, or would stock fuel pressure with the Begi FPR be enough. There seems to be a tradeoff since I'm stuck with the stock injector pulse length, where's the tradeoff between more fuel pressure and injector size. Am I correct in saying that the cheapest way to control the injector pulse is with an Emanage, which would negate the need for more fuel pressure and allow you to run smaller injectors. I'm not going to buy one, just making sure.

As for WI... Hmmmm... I think with the power I want, the simplicity of an A/A intercooler is the ticket. I know it's not a big deal to fill the tank whenever you get gas... but it is more to engineer/wire/etc... and if I go w/the Ebay IC, it all costs the same. I'll save the WI for another time... but I know you love it!!!

I just looked at the Megan Racing site. Their universal FPR looks the business and even has a guage attached. Anybody use this product or can attest to it. The Begi is the standard I think we all judge by... how does the MR stand up. Also, I could not find any Miata specific parts on the enitire site....
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Old 08-27-2006, 04:25 PM   #10
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The dp and manifold are out of production and can only be found on ebay. i spool 2 psi by 2000 rpm the power delivery is very linear i made 100 + lbft and 80 or so whp by 3000 rpm at 8 psi before i installed the mbc to help my leaky wastegate and tuned my WI pressure and mix abit better as for install aside from 1 power wire going to a presssure switch to control the pump power and one supply line from the tank-pump-intake fitting. And a inline switch to control on and off the install was very easy. I run an obx fpr i picked up for 50 bucks it is a 12-1 the stock pump should be fine for you at your power levels esp since you plan on 305's heck i made 200 whp and about 170 lbft dynojet at 8 psi on the stock pump 1.6 injectors with just the WI and FPR, so you should be fine, but when you hit about 260 crank hp or 210 whp then you might look at a walboro hp 190 and 300 crank hp should be accesible. my offer of the small tdo4 still stands if you are interested i dont know if it will fit your manifold though.
BTW my entire WI setup was only about 350 bucks, 400 if you count the 55 gallon drum of methanol i bought not to long ago.
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Old 08-27-2006, 05:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
BTW my entire WI setup was only about 350 bucks, 400 if you count the 55 gallon drum of methanol i bought not to long ago.
Just out of curiosity, what are the components of your WI system? And where the heck do you store a 55 gallon drum?
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Old 08-27-2006, 05:42 PM   #12
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In an out building behind the garage. of course. I have a tapped 1 gallon gas can supplied 2 qaurt resevior 15-16 ft of 1/4 inch nylon tubbing one quickdisconect tee, a manual toggle switch to conrol on off when pressure testing other things such as fpr without running the pump, and the supplied 176 cc jet and a pressure switch adjustable between 0-30 psi along with spray nozzle and needed tap. This was my base setup as i quickly became unhappy with how long the 2 qaurt tank lasted i have since added a manual toggle to run in conjunction with my boost gauge light so i can bench test the pump while adjusting Injection pressure and a interupt to have the light on my boost gauge on or, have it come on when the pump grounds out via a parralel hot wire running to the common ground of the pressure switch with this i can set and test the pressure switch onset more easily since my boost gauge will light up when the circuit is complete and without the manual pump swithch being on i dont have to disconnect the fitting to avoid spraying into the car at idle or while sitting in the garage and tunning. it is realy pretty simple
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Old 08-27-2006, 05:46 PM   #13
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Magna, I guess that's a good question for all of us. I'm being told two different things WRT fuel pressure vs. injector size. With a good FPR, ie. Begi... (still looking for someone to chime in with MR FPR experience) It looks like I can either go with the Walbro and 1.8 IJ's or stock fuel pump and 305's and make 180RWHP. Am I hearing this right? I know there is a calculation for this.

Assuming a stock injector pulse:
The drawback to 305's is the idle, but people say it will idle just fine with the RX7 AFM after some flapper spring adjusting. The drawback to 1.8's is that I'm maxed out... but that's not a problem. So what's the best decision. Either the Walbro and some 1.8's I can trust, or the junkyard 305's that need a test/clean. Either way it's going to cost the same.

And MagnaMX5, I'd also like to read about BRG's WI setup, but I'd like to keep this thread on topic. BRG, do you have a link to another thread you could PM Magna and I about your WI, or start another thread. Thanks.... WOOPS, too late, It's OK.
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Old 08-27-2006, 05:54 PM   #14
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From the Rc engineering website
injector flow is= to the square root of new pressure/baseline pressure times baseline flow so with the 1.8's at 230cc and lets say 80 psi wich is doable on the stock pump then Sqrt of 80/43 times 230cc= a flow of about 330 cc with the normal 190 and a pressure of 90 psi this becomes 332 cc, or with some supra 305's obtained from ebay cheap heck mine where 10 bucks
70 psi=389cc and 90 psi= 441 cc. Wether this will be enough depends on your bsfc and cooling effeiciency check out this site and play with it some. http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm#WORKSHEET
i can and will start another thread sorry. good luck
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Old 08-27-2006, 06:26 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samnavy View Post
I just looked at the Megan Racing site. Their universal FPR looks the business and even has a guage attached. Anybody use this product or can attest to it. The Begi is the standard I think we all judge by... how does the MR stand up.
First, I don't have any experience with the MR piece, but this is a rising rate FPR we're talking about here?

For my build the BEGI was the only option, since it's a pretty important part of proper fuel delivery. Hate to say it, but a used BEGI.... They do pop up all the time in the classifieds (except when you're looking ) from people upgrading fuel management.

Just some FYI From BEGI site, on their AFPR:

"Further, we’ve increased the span of adjustment for broader rates of gain. Even the onset of gain is adjustable! No other regulator provides the onset adjustment"
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Old 08-27-2006, 07:27 PM   #16
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So im not your hero then? I see how it is. I guess about 300whp on a stock computer isnt good enough
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Old 08-27-2006, 07:42 PM   #17
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An-dy Flo-yd, you're my he-ro. Did the ferris Bueller part come across? (Note, he did say "a few others" - you can just insert yourself.)

Anyway, Andy, dude, you have 300rw, run low 12s, trap 116+, you're a little out of everyones league.

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Old 08-27-2006, 08:04 PM   #18
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oOoOo sounds like a nice set-up, good luck...oh and the type-s Is the best sounding bv in my opinion.
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Old 08-28-2006, 12:13 AM   #19
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Quote:
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oOoOo sounds like a nice set-up, good luck...oh and the type-s Is the best sounding bv in my opinion.
I knew you were going to say that!!!! My build should look very similar to yours with exception of the emanage and BOV. How are you working your Perrin, did I have it right with my thoughts on this earlier?

Sorry Andy, put yourself in the "others" category. Much love!!!

Magna, great link to the RC site (I used .63 for BSFC and .80 for MIJC, was that right?). Based on your numbers, I could run either option. I think I like the sound of a Walrbo and 1.8's, less messing with the RX7 AFM.

Unless somebody can tell me I can do better/easier/safer than a Begi for less, then that's settled.

Now I've just gotta wait for these things to pop up used for the right price and be the first guy who sees the post.

I'm still open to discussion on any part of this setup and theory. I'd love to hear what guys think about what I'm doing... and I'm still looking for a good webhost.
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Old 08-28-2006, 12:25 AM   #20
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looks good have you tried cardomain?
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