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Old 07-08-2010, 08:12 AM   #41
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I googled isc coolant reroute and came with nothing. Any pictures of this setup? How much was it?
Here you go: ISC RACING LINK

If someone gets a hold of them, please post up the price.
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:18 AM   #42
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Here you go: ISC RACING LINK

If someone gets a hold of them, please post up the price.


Eh. I'd do homebrew again before I did that.
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:48 AM   #43
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I agree that you should have a belly pan and routing the air through the radiator is the proper way to go, BUT that doesn't always solve the issue. I still have the belly pan, and was at the track on the stock radiator, running water with water wetter, the heat blasting ect. and the temp was still getting too high. I ended up removing the T Stat., and getting a Koyo Radiator and problem was solved.

This is all about asking how to make the engine run cooler. Hence the response.
Good job running ducting to force air through the radiator.
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:30 AM   #44
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Wouldn't removing the thermostat (and thus, the small restriction it provides) also decrease the pressure differential between the high and low sides of the water pump? This would surely decrease the volume of coolant that flows to the accessories? It would lead to higher oil temps if using the stock oil cooler, and it would lead to less effective water-cooling at the turbocharger for a debatable amount of gain in coolant temp.

Unorganized facts:
o Removing the thermostat will allow water to circulate faster.
o Water that circulates faster through the engine will also circulate faster through the radiator.
o The greatest exchange of energy will occur at the greatest temperature differential (when water first enters the engine or the heat exchanger)
o In a thermostatless setup, you have a higher volume of fluid at the high temperature differential all of the time because it is traveling faster
o In a thermostatted setup, the temperature differential is higher all of the time because the fluid has more time to heat-soak in the engine. The fluid is hotter vs. ambient when it enters the heat exchanger, and so releases energy faster per unit volume.
o Any setup such that the capacity to dispense heat is higher than the capacity to produce it (perhaps a non-turbo car with some investment in the cooling system?) will show the thermostatless option to run cooler than the thermostatted option because the thermostat will never be fully open.

Conclusion:
A thermostatless setup, due to it's design, should run insignificantly lower temperatures than a thermostatted setup which has reached operating temperature. Both setups will have the same capacity to eliminate energy in the form of heat, and so both should be equal in their ability to keep the car cool in a track environment. In a thermostatless setup, the pressure differential between low and high sides of the water pump will likely decrease the flow to other water cooled accessories, including a stock oil cooler and turbocharger. This means no thermostat = hotter turbo. A hot turbo may insignificantly increase the frequency of lubrication and component failure to include manifold studs. To safely increase cooling capacity, other alterations will be necessary.
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:35 AM   #45
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water through turbo does not equal turbo getting cooled....water through turbo is specifically there to prevent coking oil after shut down.
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Old 07-08-2010, 11:20 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
Wouldn't removing the thermostat (and thus, the small restriction it provides) also decrease the pressure differential between the high and low sides of the water pump? This would surely decrease the volume of coolant that flows to the accessories? It would lead to higher oil temps if using the stock oil cooler, and it would lead to less effective water-cooling at the turbocharger for a debatable amount of gain in coolant temp.

Unorganized facts:
o Removing the thermostat will allow water to circulate faster.
o Water that circulates faster through the engine will also circulate faster through the radiator.
o The greatest exchange of energy will occur at the greatest temperature differential (when water first enters the engine or the heat exchanger)
o In a thermostatless setup, you have a higher volume of fluid at the high temperature differential all of the time because it is traveling faster
o In a thermostatted setup, the temperature differential is higher all of the time because the fluid has more time to heat-soak in the engine. The fluid is hotter vs. ambient when it enters the heat exchanger, and so releases energy faster per unit volume.
o Any setup such that the capacity to dispense heat is higher than the capacity to produce it (perhaps a non-turbo car with some investment in the cooling system?) will show the thermostatless option to run cooler than the thermostatted option because the thermostat will never be fully open.

Conclusion:
A thermostatless setup, due to it's design, should run insignificantly lower temperatures than a thermostatted setup which has reached operating temperature. Both setups will have the same capacity to eliminate energy in the form of heat, and so both should be equal in their ability to keep the car cool in a track environment. In a thermostatless setup, the pressure differential between low and high sides of the water pump will likely decrease the flow to other water cooled accessories, including a stock oil cooler and turbocharger. This means no thermostat = hotter turbo. A hot turbo may insignificantly increase the frequency of lubrication and component failure to include manifold studs. To safely increase cooling capacity, other alterations will be necessary.
I'm sorry, but you have no clue what you're talking about.

All the thermostat does is hold onto the fluids until they get the motor up to proper operating temperature, once that temperature is achieved then it opens and allows the fluid to flow through, cooling off the motor. If you have coolant running through the turbo then you have some major issues. You should be using oil to cool the turbo, not any kind of water or coolant (the boiling point of water/coolant is MUCH lower than oil and will cause the fluid that you do have in there to not do its job by cooling the motor)

If you have ever been to six flags think of a ride as the path the fluid goes on to get through the motor, and the line of people as fresh fluid. A thermostat is like the part where you climb aboard the cars to ride the ride.

Running with out a thermostat is simply getting rid of the "que lines" and adding more cars to the point that there isn't a backup at all and people can just run through line to get on as fast as they can get onto the cars going through the station.

Weather or not you run a thermostat will have 0% of a difference on of you're running a naturally aspirated car or a turboed car in terms of cooling.

The reason they create choke points on some turbo cars is so that they can control the temperature (kind of like a thermostat) and they can tune the car to run at a specific operating temperature to get the most power out of the car. (as I mentioned before if it runs too cool, the car will run a bit more rich than normal)
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Old 07-08-2010, 11:32 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by turotufas View Post
I have done a Reroute with no tstat and a Ebay radiator. In Florida I'm doing 185*F all day with a 50/50 mix of full concentrated coolant and water. Getting ready for the track days with ducting, parallel wiring, and maybe a hood extractor.
Why in the world are you running coolant in Florida? Let alone 50/50
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Old 07-08-2010, 11:36 AM   #48
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you mean antifreeze.
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Old 07-08-2010, 11:52 AM   #49
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BTWs, is it me, or does this reroute put the top rad inlet on the wrong side? If not, I would think this, and any, hot side setup would have to make one hell of a bend to get to the upper rad nipple. I like it, but need more clear info to really like it.

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Old 07-08-2010, 12:01 PM   #50
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it also gets rid of the heater core...
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Old 07-08-2010, 12:05 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feus View Post
If you have coolant running through the turbo then you have some major issues. You should be using oil to cool the turbo, not any kind of water or coolant (the boiling point of water/coolant is MUCH lower than oil and will cause the fluid that you do have in there to not do its job by cooling the motor)
Welcome to 1985. You should probably tell Garrett, TiAL, HKS, Greddy, Porsche, Audi, VW, subaru, Mitsubishi, Honda, GM, Ford, and everyone else on earth that they're doing it wrong because water-cooled turbos are nothing new.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feus View Post
Running with out a thermostat is simply getting rid of the "que lines" and adding more cars to the point that there isn't a backup at all and people can just run through line to get on as fast as they can get onto the cars going through the station.
Until it drops below target temp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feus View Post
Weather or not you run a thermostat will have 0% of a difference on of you're running a naturally aspirated car or a turboed car in terms of cooling.
The amount of heat going into the water has everything to do with how much and how fast the water moves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feus View Post
The reason they create choke points on some turbo cars is so that they can control the temperature (kind of like a thermostat) and they can tune the car to run at a specific operating temperature to get the most power out of the car. (as I mentioned before if it runs too cool, the car will run a bit more rich than normal)
The "choke point" or restricter I referred to previously in the Risi F430 is an NA car. Running warm-up enrichment is more than "a little rich" and running "a little rich" means fatter than 11.2:1, which is going to leave power on the table, and dump all kinds of fuel into the engine oil.

If I ran my car with no thermostat it would either overheat on the street or run cold on the track.
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Old 07-08-2010, 01:11 PM   #52
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So would removing the coolant lines from the turbo help keep coolant temps lower overall? Would I want to do this? I'm not really up to speed on cooling methods, but I am open to learning.
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Old 07-08-2010, 02:04 PM   #53
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Welcome to 1985. You should probably tell Garrett, TiAL, HKS, Greddy, Porsche, Audi, VW, subaru, Mitsubishi, Honda, GM, Ford, and everyone else on earth that they're doing it wrong because water-cooled turbos are nothing new.
sorry I worded that poorly, the coolant doesn't cool the turbo, it actually cools the oil that cools the turbo.


Quote:
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The amount of heat going into the water has everything to do with how much and how fast the water moves.
yes if you have a thermostat in there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
The "choke point" or restricter I referred to previously in the Risi F430 is an NA car. Running warm-up enrichment is more than "a little rich" and running "a little rich" means fatter than 11.2:1, which is going to leave power on the table, and dump all kinds of fuel into the engine oil.
last I checked a stock miata isn't as fine tuned as any F430 and i also doubt the F430 has as many cooling issues as a 20 year old car with a small stock radiator.

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If I ran my car with no thermostat it would either overheat on the street or run cold on the track.
yes, your car, I dont see why you're arguing every possible point that I bring up on here, the thread is about ways to cool your engine better and I'm simply providing a way. Chris101 even has guages in her car to prove the system works in a Naturally Aspirated car as she has the same setup as me.
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Old 07-08-2010, 02:46 PM   #54
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last I checked a stock miata isn't as fine tuned as any F430 and i also doubt the F430 has as many cooling issues as a 20 year old car with a small stock radiator.
This is not about a stock Miata, its about a 200whp Miata. This thread is about "best methods to cool down a motor" and we've already stated the "best."
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Old 07-08-2010, 03:17 PM   #55
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IIT: we need less and more
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Old 07-08-2010, 03:26 PM   #56
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Oh god what have I created
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:57 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Feus View Post
sorry I worded that poorly, the coolant doesn't cool the turbo, it actually cools the oil that cools the turbo.
LOL
Please step into the 21st century before you start calling people out.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...R_466541_4.htm

Quote:
Oil & Water-cooled bearing system
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Old 07-20-2010, 08:47 PM   #58
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on the track, you don't want your fans turning, they will act to block the airflow at track speeds instead of promote airflow. Antifreeze will reduce water's natural 'specific heat' (that is to say: it will reduce waters ability to hold and transfer heat energy) 100% water is better than water/antifreeze mix at transferring that heat from your engine to your radiator any day of the week! (Literally, the ONLY 2 purposes for antifreeze are to A: keep your coolant from freezing, and B: to act as a lubricant which prohibits corrosion) Water wetter will serve to reduce the surface tension of water much like soap does. (Bill nye, the science guy FTMFW!) It is also a corrosion inhibitor. Basically, it will increase the 'speed' at which energy can be transferred from the engine to the water, and then from the water to the radiator.

Your absolute largest gain (if you've got at least average intelligence, then you've done this already) is a coolant reroute.

After that, look for ways of promoting airflow across the heat exchanger. Ducting and Extraction hoods come to mind. Also, you will absolutely want to get rid of any "fan shroud" if you've added one. They're fantastic for the street/autoX, but they prohibit airflow at track speeds. If you've raised the back of your hood (cowl induction?) then put it back down. Mazda put the rubber in there where your hood seals to the rear of your engine bay for a reason. That's a high pressure area and will serve to significantly reduce airflow through your heat exchangers.

Finally; If you've removed the stock miata undertray PUT IT BACK.

That undertray serves to protect the engine and belts from crap coming up from the bottom. In my honest opinion, thats a SIDE EFFECT.

The undertray serves VERY EFFECTIVELY to increase the pressure differential across the heat exchangers. If you don't have the undertray, you've commited thermal suicide.
i thought removing the rubber seal from the firewall at the rear of the enginebay where it meets the bonnet/hood would be a good thing as when your driving the air rushing over the car will pull the hot air outfrom under the bonnet over the windshield and away from the hot engine bay no?

my previous car a renault 5 gt turbo are famous for overheating issues and people said to remove the thermostat i tried that and it never reached operating temperature car performance wasnt that great i didnt like it it didint feel right.also the tuners said something about running without a thermostat would cause problems of air in the system and localised hot points i honestly cant remember ok il shut up somebody slap me! the motto os the story dont run without a thermostatits not good!
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:19 PM   #59
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i thought removing the rubber seal from the firewall at the rear of the enginebay where it meets the bonnet/hood would be a good thing as when your driving the air rushing over the car will pull the hot air outfrom under the bonnet over the windshield and away from the hot engine bay no?

my previous car a renault 5 gt turbo are famous for overheating issues and people said to remove the thermostat i tried that and it never reached operating temperature car performance wasnt that great i didnt like it it didint feel right.also the tuners said something about running without a thermostat would cause problems of air in the system and localised hot points i honestly cant remember ok il shut up somebody slap me! the motto os the story dont run without a thermostatits not good!

i'm a noob here, so i might get my **** slapped for explaining this wrong, but i'll try to clear up the second part of your post.

some people have explained in this thread, with varying degrees of clarity, the function of a thermostat.

It opens when the coolant reaches a certain point, allowing it to flow through the radiator and return to the engine. When the coolant has returned to a normal operating temp, the thermostat closes, until the coolant is hot again. at which point the cycle repeats.

when your car is starting cold, the thermostat will stay closed, to hold the coolant in the engine, and help the car come up to operating temperature more quickly. The problems you describe are due to the car never being able to come up to operating temperature, i have no idea what the deal with air bubbles is, and i can only assume the problem of hot points would be due to uneven coolant flow path with the thermostat always open.


and the area infront of the windshield, and behind the hood is a high pressure area from what i understand. i do not understand the dynamics of airflow around the car enough to say if connecting the engine bay to that space would be good or bad.
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:28 PM   #60
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and the area infront of the windshield, and behind the hood is a high pressure area from what i understand. i do not understand the dynamics of airflow around the car enough to say if connecting the engine bay to that space would be good or bad.
Bad, unless you are connecting it to the compressor inlet a-la cowl CAI, but then again that is not really connecting it to the engine bay.
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