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EFR turbo le why u gotta b such a BITCH
06-06-2012, 06:08 PM
#124
Former Vendor
iTrader: (31)
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 15,442
Total Cats: 2,100
Yeah, I hear you. Everything I have been told privately leads me to believe that BW has made major supplier/design changes to alleviate the issue, so IMO it's worth giving them the benefit of the doubt. The turbine wheel material is being used in the A380 and 787 Dreamliner engines, so there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to produce a reliable turbine wheel with the same stuff.
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06-06-2012, 08:20 PM
#131
Fae, you do see Garretts on a plane - Garrett = Honeywell, which also does aircraft APUs. A few years back there was an entire division of Garrett dedicated to aircraft turbos. BW does not do any aircraft...
Anyway, titanium aluminide is very cool stuff. Lower density than nickel based alloys makes for lighter wheels, less inertia. That's the real "get" with ti-al.
One of the big problems with ti-al though is how to join the wheel to the turbine shaft in a robust manner. It's also less tolerant of high temperature and more sensitive to foreign objects (low ductility) than nickel based alloys.
It's not like other turbo mfrs have never looked into ti-al before. Mitsubishi went through a big learning curve with joining their ti-al wheels to the shaft (certain Evos had ti-al wheels from mid-'90s on). It is not at all straightforward to do, and even after years of development the ti-al evo turbos were never as robust as the inco ones.
This is not poo-poo at all what BW has done with the EFR. It is very impressive, and ambitious.
It is true that the Garrett's turbine wheel aero is many years old by this point. I don't know if BW developed totally-new aero to their EFR wheels, or not. I'd guess they developed one aero and simply scaled it to all the different wheel sizes.
Anyway, titanium aluminide is very cool stuff. Lower density than nickel based alloys makes for lighter wheels, less inertia. That's the real "get" with ti-al.
One of the big problems with ti-al though is how to join the wheel to the turbine shaft in a robust manner. It's also less tolerant of high temperature and more sensitive to foreign objects (low ductility) than nickel based alloys.
It's not like other turbo mfrs have never looked into ti-al before. Mitsubishi went through a big learning curve with joining their ti-al wheels to the shaft (certain Evos had ti-al wheels from mid-'90s on). It is not at all straightforward to do, and even after years of development the ti-al evo turbos were never as robust as the inco ones.
This is not poo-poo at all what BW has done with the EFR. It is very impressive, and ambitious.
It is true that the Garrett's turbine wheel aero is many years old by this point. I don't know if BW developed totally-new aero to their EFR wheels, or not. I'd guess they developed one aero and simply scaled it to all the different wheel sizes.
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06-06-2012, 08:34 PM
#132
Newb
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 32
Total Cats: 2
It's fine that you can't justify it, but get your facts right. It's a $1450 turbo, not a $2000 turbo. It doesn't perform "as good" as an $800 turbo - the cheapest Garrett DBB is $1k, and the EFR knocks it out of the park. No Garrett turbo comes close to the same combination of low-end torque and high-end power.
I'm not expecting people to cross-shop them against Chinese turbos, but they are worth every penny of the $1450 BW asks for them.
I'm not expecting people to cross-shop them against Chinese turbos, but they are worth every penny of the $1450 BW asks for them.
800 dollar turbo vs 2200 dollar turbo.
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06-06-2012, 09:41 PM
#138
Newb
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 32
Total Cats: 2
Twin scroll won't affect wastegate routing, I am going undivided manifold with a QSV. 
One good ol Tial 38mm and a dump tube will do the trick.
I've got a wastegate muffler off a turbo 911, should keep the open dump fairly quiet.
One good ol Tial 38mm and a dump tube will do the trick.
I've got a wastegate muffler off a turbo 911, should keep the open dump fairly quiet.
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06-06-2012, 09:44 PM
#139
Fae, you do see Garretts on a plane - Garrett = Honeywell, which also does aircraft APUs. A few years back there was an entire division of Garrett dedicated to aircraft turbos. BW does not do any aircraft...
Anyway, titanium aluminide is very cool stuff. Lower density than nickel based alloys makes for lighter wheels, less inertia. That's the real "get" with ti-al.
One of the big problems with ti-al though is how to join the wheel to the turbine shaft in a robust manner. It's also less tolerant of high temperature and more sensitive to foreign objects (low ductility) than nickel based alloys.
It's not like other turbo mfrs have never looked into ti-al before. Mitsubishi went through a big learning curve with joining their ti-al wheels to the shaft (certain Evos had ti-al wheels from mid-'90s on). It is not at all straightforward to do, and even after years of development the ti-al evo turbos were never as robust as the inco ones.
This is not poo-poo at all what BW has done with the EFR. It is very impressive, and ambitious.
It is true that the Garrett's turbine wheel aero is many years old by this point. I don't know if BW developed totally-new aero to their EFR wheels, or not. I'd guess they developed one aero and simply scaled it to all the different wheel sizes.
Anyway, titanium aluminide is very cool stuff. Lower density than nickel based alloys makes for lighter wheels, less inertia. That's the real "get" with ti-al.
One of the big problems with ti-al though is how to join the wheel to the turbine shaft in a robust manner. It's also less tolerant of high temperature and more sensitive to foreign objects (low ductility) than nickel based alloys.
It's not like other turbo mfrs have never looked into ti-al before. Mitsubishi went through a big learning curve with joining their ti-al wheels to the shaft (certain Evos had ti-al wheels from mid-'90s on). It is not at all straightforward to do, and even after years of development the ti-al evo turbos were never as robust as the inco ones.
This is not poo-poo at all what BW has done with the EFR. It is very impressive, and ambitious.
It is true that the Garrett's turbine wheel aero is many years old by this point. I don't know if BW developed totally-new aero to their EFR wheels, or not. I'd guess they developed one aero and simply scaled it to all the different wheel sizes.
However, I thought Gamma-Ti because stronger at higher temperatures, not weaker?
from http://www.full-race.com/articles/efrturbotechbrief.pdf
Gamma-Ti lacks toughness at room temperature (another one of the manufacturing challenges) yet at higher temperature it gains ductility and takes on excellent strength properties. It also has a very high stiffness-to-weight ratio and good damping.
The 55mm and 58mm turbines are targeted at street applications that need maximized boost response through smallest diameter and lowest inertia. Still capable of 350-450hp when mated to the 62mm and 67mm compressors, they are a potent combination of quick response and respectable power capacity.
The 58mm turbine offers superior efficiency to the 55mm and when in doubt, should be the chosen one of the two. The 55mm is offered for those people wanting the ultimate in small-rotor response, especially those who are used to 45-50mm turbos (such as our K03 and K04 products) who still want that “feel” but with a lot more top-end capability.
The 64mm and 70mm wheels are descendants from the same family of blade shape as the 55mm and 58mm, but are simply larger in size. All four of these wheels use an 88-89% trim diameter, a good choice on this wheel for efficiency, flow capacity, and durability.
The 74mm wheel is of a very similar theme of those smaller sizes. This wheel is a very potent performer and is used heavily in some of our most efficiency-focused applications on the OE side of the business. It is cut to an 87% trim diameter.
The 80mm wheel really means business. Made from our highest-flowing blade shape, this wheel is designed for maximum flow in view of our highest-power EFR customers. This wheel has delivered the goods for up to 1000whp (per turbo) and comes with a 92% exducer trim.
The 58mm turbine offers superior efficiency to the 55mm and when in doubt, should be the chosen one of the two. The 55mm is offered for those people wanting the ultimate in small-rotor response, especially those who are used to 45-50mm turbos (such as our K03 and K04 products) who still want that “feel” but with a lot more top-end capability.
The 64mm and 70mm wheels are descendants from the same family of blade shape as the 55mm and 58mm, but are simply larger in size. All four of these wheels use an 88-89% trim diameter, a good choice on this wheel for efficiency, flow capacity, and durability.
The 74mm wheel is of a very similar theme of those smaller sizes. This wheel is a very potent performer and is used heavily in some of our most efficiency-focused applications on the OE side of the business. It is cut to an 87% trim diameter.
The 80mm wheel really means business. Made from our highest-flowing blade shape, this wheel is designed for maximum flow in view of our highest-power EFR customers. This wheel has delivered the goods for up to 1000whp (per turbo) and comes with a 92% exducer trim.
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06-07-2012, 03:40 AM
#140
soviet, ti-al indeed sees a big jump in ductility at about 600 deg C. Don't let it encounter any foreign objects below this temp...
I am curious to see whether BW can successfully develop ti-al turbine wheels, esp for an aftermarket performance customer base that will gleefully run any turbo beyond the ragged edge. It remains to be seen how tolerant of aftermarket abuse (temperature, overspeed) they will be once/if they can get the wheel-shaft joint issue sorted.
I am curious to see whether BW can successfully develop ti-al turbine wheels, esp for an aftermarket performance customer base that will gleefully run any turbo beyond the ragged edge. It remains to be seen how tolerant of aftermarket abuse (temperature, overspeed) they will be once/if they can get the wheel-shaft joint issue sorted.
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