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Old 06-06-2012, 06:12 PM   #121
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Does the 18-month warranty start when you get a turbo or do they wait 17-months after purchase to ship it? Serious question.
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Old 06-06-2012, 06:50 PM   #122
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You should go with the GTX just so you can dyno it and get a real life comparison. Hell if you do that, I will pay for the dyno time for 3 pulls. This way we actually get a good back to back comparison of the difference between the 2 turbos.

You cant afford dyno time with your north carolina money.


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The delays are clearly caused by insufficient availability of unicorn horn.

i've got a horn for you bby
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:02 PM   #123
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You cant afford dyno time with your SOUTH carolina money.
I got plenty of money for dyno time. Houses do not cost you 1.5million like they do in Nova. I can live within walking distance of the beach with roomates for $500 a month.
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:08 PM   #124
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That's how I feel.
Yeah, I hear you. Everything I have been told privately leads me to believe that BW has made major supplier/design changes to alleviate the issue, so IMO it's worth giving them the benefit of the doubt. The turbine wheel material is being used in the A380 and 787 Dreamliner engines, so there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to produce a reliable turbine wheel with the same stuff.
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:18 PM   #125
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but garrett has used the same turbine wheel material and design for 40 years...even with the new gtx series
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:24 PM   #126
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but garrett has used the same turbine wheel material and design for 40 years...even with the new gtx series
But you don't see garrett on a plane. Do you? Yeah you dont
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:25 PM   #127
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But you don't see garrett on a plane. Do you? Yeah you dont
Garretts on a plane, starring Faelflora.
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:42 PM   #128
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Sorry guys, no GTX2860R dynos anytime soon

Garrett are cool guys though. Props for them for reaching out.
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Old 06-06-2012, 08:08 PM   #129
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but garrett has used the same turbine wheel material and design for 40 years...even with the new gtx series
Which is why it's no wonder that the new Borg titanium aluminide wheels perform much better (when they stay attached).
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Old 06-06-2012, 08:41 PM   #130
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The turbine wheel material is being used in the A380 and 787 Dreamliner engines,...
Makes me feel good about flying.
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Old 06-06-2012, 09:20 PM   #131
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Fae, you do see Garretts on a plane - Garrett = Honeywell, which also does aircraft APUs. A few years back there was an entire division of Garrett dedicated to aircraft turbos. BW does not do any aircraft...

Anyway, titanium aluminide is very cool stuff. Lower density than nickel based alloys makes for lighter wheels, less inertia. That's the real "get" with ti-al.

One of the big problems with ti-al though is how to join the wheel to the turbine shaft in a robust manner. It's also less tolerant of high temperature and more sensitive to foreign objects (low ductility) than nickel based alloys.

It's not like other turbo mfrs have never looked into ti-al before. Mitsubishi went through a big learning curve with joining their ti-al wheels to the shaft (certain Evos had ti-al wheels from mid-'90s on). It is not at all straightforward to do, and even after years of development the ti-al evo turbos were never as robust as the inco ones.

This is not poo-poo at all what BW has done with the EFR. It is very impressive, and ambitious.

It is true that the Garrett's turbine wheel aero is many years old by this point. I don't know if BW developed totally-new aero to their EFR wheels, or not. I'd guess they developed one aero and simply scaled it to all the different wheel sizes.
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Old 06-06-2012, 09:34 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
It's fine that you can't justify it, but get your facts right. It's a $1450 turbo, not a $2000 turbo. It doesn't perform "as good" as an $800 turbo - the cheapest Garrett DBB is $1k, and the EFR knocks it out of the park. No Garrett turbo comes close to the same combination of low-end torque and high-end power.

I'm not expecting people to cross-shop them against Chinese turbos, but they are worth every penny of the $1450 BW asks for them.
Get YOUR facts right. As I said in the later post, I was comparing BW S366 91-79 .91AR twin scroll to BW EFR 8374 for my 2JZ project, not for a Miata.

800 dollar turbo vs 2200 dollar turbo.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:04 PM   #133
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Get YOUR facts right. As I said in the later post, I was comparing BW S366 91-79 .91AR twin scroll to BW EFR 8374 for my 2JZ project, not for a Miata.

800 dollar turbo vs 2200 dollar turbo.

I have that turbo on my miata. $650 not $800. S400 or bust!
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:06 PM   #134
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Haha well 800 shipped to Canada.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:13 PM   #135
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Get YOUR facts right. As I said in the later post, I was comparing BW S366 91-79 .91AR twin scroll to BW EFR 8374 for my 2JZ project, not for a Miata.

800 dollar turbo vs 2200 dollar turbo.
No offense, but you're posting on a Miata forum. Don't get butthurt when people assume you have a Miata.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:34 PM   #136
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I was getting butthurt that you didn't read the thread. Top of page 2 I said I was pricing an 8374.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:36 PM   #137
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And how much extra are you going to spend on wastegate routing? Especially with twin-scroll.

I love airwerks turbos because they are SO SIMPLE. But can't directly compare EFR and AirWerks.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:41 PM   #138
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Twin scroll won't affect wastegate routing, I am going undivided manifold with a QSV.

One good ol Tial 38mm and a dump tube will do the trick.

I've got a wastegate muffler off a turbo 911, should keep the open dump fairly quiet.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:44 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by JKav View Post
Fae, you do see Garretts on a plane - Garrett = Honeywell, which also does aircraft APUs. A few years back there was an entire division of Garrett dedicated to aircraft turbos. BW does not do any aircraft...

Anyway, titanium aluminide is very cool stuff. Lower density than nickel based alloys makes for lighter wheels, less inertia. That's the real "get" with ti-al.

One of the big problems with ti-al though is how to join the wheel to the turbine shaft in a robust manner. It's also less tolerant of high temperature and more sensitive to foreign objects (low ductility) than nickel based alloys.

It's not like other turbo mfrs have never looked into ti-al before. Mitsubishi went through a big learning curve with joining their ti-al wheels to the shaft (certain Evos had ti-al wheels from mid-'90s on). It is not at all straightforward to do, and even after years of development the ti-al evo turbos were never as robust as the inco ones.

This is not poo-poo at all what BW has done with the EFR. It is very impressive, and ambitious.

It is true that the Garrett's turbine wheel aero is many years old by this point. I don't know if BW developed totally-new aero to their EFR wheels, or not. I'd guess they developed one aero and simply scaled it to all the different wheel sizes.
Good read. Thanks for posting.
However, I thought Gamma-Ti because stronger at higher temperatures, not weaker?

from http://www.full-race.com/articles/efrturbotechbrief.pdf
Quote:
Gamma-Ti lacks toughness at room temperature (another one of the manufacturing challenges) yet at higher temperature it gains ductility and takes on excellent strength properties. It also has a very high stiffness-to-weight ratio and good damping.
The wheels are all similar but slightly different. If you look in the PDF they all look a little bit different.
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The 55mm and 58mm turbines are targeted at street applications that need maximized boost response through smallest diameter and lowest inertia. Still capable of 350-450hp when mated to the 62mm and 67mm compressors, they are a potent combination of quick response and respectable power capacity.

The 58mm turbine offers superior efficiency to the 55mm and when in doubt, should be the chosen one of the two. The 55mm is offered for those people wanting the ultimate in small-rotor response, especially those who are used to 45-50mm turbos (such as our K03 and K04 products) who still want that “feel” but with a lot more top-end capability.

The 64mm and 70mm wheels are descendants from the same family of blade shape as the 55mm and 58mm, but are simply larger in size. All four of these wheels use an 88-89% trim diameter, a good choice on this wheel for efficiency, flow capacity, and durability.

The 74mm wheel is of a very similar theme of those smaller sizes. This wheel is a very potent performer and is used heavily in some of our most efficiency-focused applications on the OE side of the business. It is cut to an 87% trim diameter.

The 80mm wheel really means business. Made from our highest-flowing blade shape, this wheel is designed for maximum flow in view of our highest-power EFR customers. This wheel has delivered the goods for up to 1000whp (per turbo) and comes with a 92% exducer trim.
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Old 06-07-2012, 04:40 AM   #140
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soviet, ti-al indeed sees a big jump in ductility at about 600 deg C. Don't let it encounter any foreign objects below this temp...

I am curious to see whether BW can successfully develop ti-al turbine wheels, esp for an aftermarket performance customer base that will gleefully run any turbo beyond the ragged edge. It remains to be seen how tolerant of aftermarket abuse (temperature, overspeed) they will be once/if they can get the wheel-shaft joint issue sorted.
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