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Old 09-19-2010, 02:57 PM   #81
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Post the question in b-series.org, trust me you spend a few hours on that forum, next thing you will be searching on CL for a project car. People say Subarus are Legos, hell no, the Lego official car is the Honda platform.

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Old 09-19-2010, 03:47 PM   #82
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Interesting.

I have a 94 ls Integra which is my dd. It has about 160k on it now and still runs perfect. In the future when/if the motor goes I was planning on putting in a stock b20z just to have a reliable torquey dd. I did not realize how strong some of you guys are saying a stock b18 bottom end is, I might have to make a change in plans now.

Do you think a boosted ls is dd material? I live down a dirt road, which sucks for manifolds and hardware. Perhaps a cast manifold and safety wire would work in this instance? Bah, now I've got to do more research.
The B18b is a great engines IF you dont rev the **** out of it. It wont grenade at 8k but it will wear out fast. So just keep the rev limiter at the stock 7k with a good sized turbo and it will be plenty fast and last a long time.
Theres no reason why you could daily it boosted as long as you tune it right.

I would suggest making your life easy and getting a manifold and DP from go-autoworks. it wont be as cheap as ebay stuff but it will actually FIT, lol

The cast "drag" manifold is really great, a lot of people hate on them because it cast and they want tubular but Ive seen drag manifolds make over 400hp.
You can get that manifold with a 3" stainless DP and a stainless dump tube for $550.

http://www.go-autoworks-store.com/gocama3doco.html
or if you want to keep AC you can go with a 2.5" DP on the same combo deal for $520.
http://www.go-autoworks-store.com/gocamadoco.html

There is NOTHING easier tyo turbocharge than a honda. Its almost ridiculous how easy it is. I could take a honda from stock to boosted and running in less than 3 hours.
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Old 09-20-2010, 01:36 PM   #83
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Street/Drag. I dont think the cast pistons would stand up to road racing at 500 hp. But there are some road racers running vitara built bottom ends. Ill have to look up what kind of power theyre making safely.

Road racing would blow up so many of these peoples cars. A lot of them have little tiny radiators with slim fans.
Ive gotten into a few discussions about just that. Many people dont realize just how much abuse the engine sees when youre making full boost off and on for half an hour.
So what power levels will stand up to track abuse for the following unopened motors, assuming adequate cooling?
- D series
- B16 / B18
- H22
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Old 09-20-2010, 01:51 PM   #84
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With the exception of the S2000, Honda engines power the wrong wheels. Sure they make good power and cool sounds....but it's just not nearly as fun. Reminds me of a friend I took for a ride. Mind you he has a C6 Z06 'Vette. He got out of my car just loving it. I was kinda dumbfounded because he has a damn Z06 and a nice GTO he said "but you can have fun driving this- you have to change gears, you have to drive it. In the 'vette I can just stick it in one gear and go anywhere and break all speed limits. Sure it's fast, but it's not as fun". We then proceeded to do 140mph past a cop, get pulled over and yelled at...and told to go home without a ticket.
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Old 09-20-2010, 01:54 PM   #85
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140 past a cop means keep going 140, getting off with no ticket (or jail) is pretty damn lucky
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Old 09-20-2010, 02:12 PM   #86
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140 past a cop means keep going 140, getting off with no ticket (or jail) is pretty damn lucky
It means that you need 3.6 gears and an 8500 redline so you can hit 170mph and then unlatch your soft top which should vault your car into space.
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:42 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Doppelgänger View Post
With the exception of the S2000, Honda engines power the wrong wheels. Sure they make good power and cool sounds....but it's just not nearly as fun. Reminds me of a friend I took for a ride. Mind you he has a C6 Z06 'Vette. He got out of my car just loving it. I was kinda dumbfounded because he has a damn Z06 and a nice GTO he said "but you can have fun driving this- you have to change gears, you have to drive it. In the 'vette I can just stick it in one gear and go anywhere and break all speed limits. Sure it's fast, but it's not as fun". We then proceeded to do 140mph past a cop, get pulled over and yelled at...and told to go home without a ticket.
You should thank that cop every day for the rest of your life.
That is one nice cop
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:55 PM   #88
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You should thank that cop every day for the rest of your life.
That is one nice cop
He must be a girl. Or a very sexy guy.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:45 PM   #89
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we've run a crx with an ls swap for 6 years, been turbo'd for 4 and it runs great. china turbo 9psi 240whp running auto-x, trackdays, occasional drag track duty (runs 12.1 everytime) stock bottom, ported head w/springs and retainers and stock cams shifting at 8k

also ran my buddy's ls/turbo swapped eg hatch at a PCA event here. stock motor/head 15psi. we double drove it in the texas heat (near 100*) drove great the entire time, missed out on ftd only to a 911 racecar on hoosiers by 1 sec. it was a high speed course and we were topping it out on one of the straights which is about 145mph.

both cars have china chargers btw, 4-5 years old, the eg has a 1/2 width radiator but it's thick aluminum china one, the crx had a 1/2 width skinny rad., but has since been swapped to a rear mounted, full width aluminum unit that sucks in air from underneath and expels it through the hatch (through the removed vertical glass that was for rear visibility) ala 599xx.
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Old 09-20-2010, 05:04 PM   #90
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I think a lot of the problem with miata's is that people have tried to build the engine from other engines. I know the suzuki hyabusa uses an 83mm piston. We just don't have a big enough following for people to really step out of the box. I'm actually suprised no one makes an rx7 transmission swap kit.
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Old 09-20-2010, 05:22 PM   #91
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Its been discussed before: there isn't enough demand for them.
If there were tons of rx7 transmissions available and every other joe was swapping one in itd be a different story I'm sure.

But that's just not the case.

Also, the miata 6 speed has shown to hold up to large power and lots of abuse and is a direct bolt on, so its only makes sense to use that before an rx7 transmission.


It is a bit disappointing that the only company that makes straight cut gears for our cars is quaife and they charge out the ***.

Itd be nice to be able to have 1200-1600 "guts" that are much stronger than stock to swap in like some other markets have
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Old 09-20-2010, 06:25 PM   #92
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Its been discussed before: there isn't enough demand for them.
If there were tons of rx7 transmissions available and every other joe was swapping one in itd be a different story I'm sure.

But that's just not the case.

Also, the miata 6 speed has shown to hold up to large power and lots of abuse and is a direct bolt on, so its only makes sense to use that before an rx7 transmission.


It is a bit disappointing that the only company that makes straight cut gears for our cars is quaife and they charge out the ***.

Itd be nice to be able to have 1200-1600 "guts" that are much stronger than stock to swap in like some other markets have
I agree. Because we don't have a huge crowd like the honda B series does. we don't know what you can and can not swap in for cheap money. It would be great to know of some random car's piston and suddenly you have a 12.5:1 or 8.5:1 compression BP. We just don't have enough people to test the waters. I personally don't have the money to.
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Old 09-20-2010, 08:46 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
So what power levels will stand up to track abuse for the following unopened motors, assuming adequate cooling?
- D series
- B16 / B18
- H22
ha! somebody asks the obvious question and it suddenly got really quiet in here. i'm not calling bs or anything, but valid datapoints for reliability in track conditions seem to be few and far between.

this is a bit offtopic, but i posted the above question in my nissan forum to see what the sweet spot is for power handling on the sr20det (with head gasket as only mod). answer seems to be low to mid 300's, octane limiting, assuming pump gas. this corresponds roughly to gt30 turbo at 1bar. e85/higher octane will get you closer to 400 but my datapoints become sparse at this level.

(sr20det is 2.0 liter factory turbo motor produced for most of the 90's)
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:28 PM   #94
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(sr20det is 2.0 liter factory turbo motor produced for most of the 90's)
Thanks!
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:53 PM   #95
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ha! somebody asks the obvious question and it suddenly got really quiet in here. i'm not calling bs or anything, but valid datapoints for reliability in track conditions seem to be few and far between.
Maybe it's because it's a Honda question asked on a non-Honda forum, and most of us have no valid input about it?
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Old 09-21-2010, 11:35 AM   #96
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Well there sure were a lot of posts along the lines of "my honda motor can beat up your Mazda motor"...
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Old 09-21-2010, 12:21 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond View Post
140 past a cop means keep going 140, getting off with no ticket (or jail) is pretty damn lucky
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
You should thank that cop every day for the rest of your life.
That is one nice cop
Luckily I was not driving.
We didn't get clocked, just hauled *** past him (didn't see him) and when we stopped at an offramp he popped us. The guy driving asked how fast we were going and all I saw the entire time was north of 130mph.

Yeah...he was VERY lucky. I was just thinking about the opportunity of getting to drive his car home when he got arrested
The cop wasn't nice about it though, just looked at his license and threw it back at him him and said "Just because you have a fast ******* car doesn't mean you can hauls *** everywhere you go. Have a good night!!"




But on topic of this thread. I think some of the reason we see Honda doing this is because of their F1 program and their motorcycles. Mazda really did neither of those motorsports. However they did do WRC and lots of road racing where midrange power and torque were more helpful and was what worked well for them.If Mazda had the need to develop higher hp/super flowing n/a engines for something like F1, we would have eventually seen that trickle down to the end consumer.
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Old 09-21-2010, 12:29 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
So what power levels will stand up to track abuse for the following unopened motors, assuming adequate cooling?
- D series
- B16 / B18
- H22
With a good d16 such as he d16z6 you see lots of people tracking and autocrossing at ~200hp. Its very limited by the connectig rods.
The H22 doesnt get used much but from what Ive seen people get away with on stock internals for a drag car (400+hp), I would expect that you could make 300 on the track.

As far as the B series, there is a lot of difference between models. The B16A that we got here was suprsingly low compression for being a high reving NA motor, so you can throw some real boost at it. many people use them with smaller turbos like gt2560sfor track/autocross at around 250hp.
The LS (B18B) is a bit limited in how high you can rev because the rod bolts will stretch, and if you replace them the rod ratio is still crap. But the comprssion isnt very high, so reliably output s similar to the B16A.
The GSR and USDM ITR and JDM ITR (B18C1 and B18C5 and B18C) are all high compression. You usually see them being used for NA builds. I have no idea how much power they can make as a turbo track car, but Id assume within the ~250 range.

Just like with the Miatas you see people getting away with more and less.
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Old 09-21-2010, 12:33 PM   #99
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So seeing as an unopened miata motor can be turboed to make 220~250 hp and take track abuse, it seems that with your above examples only the H22 will make a lot more.
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Old 09-21-2010, 12:50 PM   #100
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So seeing as an unopened miata motor can be turboed to make 220~250 hp and take track abuse, it seems that with your above examples only the H22 will make a lot more.
On the track yes, I dont think the honda engines would have much of a power advantage on stock internals.
People get away with a lot on the street with big turbos and conservative tuning, but those setups couldnt survive track abuse. The rods and pistons wont take the heat.

The thing is that you can build the engine for pretty cheap and with some of the good flowing engines (B16, GSR, ITR) make a ton of power with no other modifications.

If you look at most of my posts in this thread Ive been arguing that the BP isnt really far behind the Honda engines at all. Its power band is shifted down a little bit, but it takes to boost better than most hondas. The BP is very similar to the B18B in both NA output and Turbo output.

The reason I like hondas so much is because you cn make power very cheap, much cheaprer than a miata.
Turbo manifolds, DPs, IMs, cams, rods, pistons, clutches, all much cheaper.
Not to mention the fact that the stock honda ECU is very capable. People have made 600hp on factory ECUs with a tune that was made on free software.
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