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I understand that, but I thought it would have the ability to flow 100% or less. Not some random amount and less.
(edit: was confusing two posts).
If you removed the stock prop valve and installed an adjustable one that you can dial all the way down to zero, then yeah, you should probably be able to lock the rear brakes. This depends on a bunch of things though, one that's not totally obvious is that the stickier tires you have, the more weight transfer you get, and the less rear bias you want. At one point my car was perfectly stable on street tires, but would lock the rears with R comps.
I have two brake pressure sensors, one of these days I'm going to get around to installing them at various points in my system and measure what's what.
Unfortunatly, I still do think that I'm screwed. You see, I've "upgraded my brakes"... and now my shiny BBK's won't stop the car.
There are various opinions on whether or not a 2004 MSM has ABS with EBD. It sounds like if it does have EBD, then I can turn that prop valve all I want and the car still may not stop.
Here's what I did to a nice set of your PFC's at the end of an enduro. The sad thing is that I really couldn't tell much difference in threshold braking... just that same vague "step on the pedal like a gorilla kind of feeling" ... without stopping much. ...that is until my wheel caught fire d//t a hydraulic failure.
I've tried mult suggestions of using different pad manufacturers and combo's. Hawk, PFC, Carbotech's, ect. Still, the car will only stop a -.78 g. (while I gleaned the happy side of -1.0 g with OEM's on an old set Hawk Blues).
I think that much of the problem has arisen form the dynalite having a much smaller caliper piston size (3.00 sq in) that the OEM caliper (3.54 sq in). Willwood doesn't make a 3.5 dynalite or dynapro in a lug mount (only a radial mount dynapro)My Wilwood prop valve is installed just off the MC ( and before the ABS pump). Willwood specs that this will cut off all line pressure to the rear until the pressure reaches 100#. I then has an adjustable knee. They don't specify the slope of the pressure ratio's. I've never been able to adjust this adequately.
I did even test out using a smaller piston (non-sport) rear caliper... which was a fail.
After reading your article on prop valves, If my car does have EBD, then I might just turning that **** in futility.
hello gtred,
you used up all of those PFC pads... and then some!
If your finding a limit of .78 with all of those pad manufacturers where seeing -1 with blues. the limit in braking G is not in the pads. I did mention before that the brakes don't stop the car, the tires do. do take some time a re-read the first few pages as we cover that topic in detail. i'ts hard to diagnose what changes have been made to the car from your first test to now.
from my experience .78G in braking is very low, on our data we see consistently see 1.03g on the PFC 10/11 combination maxxis rc-1 tire.that's using my driving and i'm not very good or aggressive. what device are you using to measure? if your using a hand held device like a phone or even a AiM solo. moving it's mounting point in the chassis will change the data. oh and if your going to have wine in the garage man rules dictate we use a mason jar :P JK.
__________________ OG Racing
Your Source For Motorsports Safety Equipment WWW.OGRACING.COM
800.934.9112
703.430.3303 info@ogracing.com
Originally Posted by Mobius
Hopefully so, but let's hope it's never necessary. Experiencing your safety gear in action is ... not optimal.
I see now, that I was duped into thinking that a proportional valve, was going to actually be able to control flow in a proportional manor, from full pressure to zero.
All right, here's a kind of unusual question - I'm looking at floor mounted reverse type pedal box, which is to say the sort with the master cylinders pointing rearwards, on the theory that I can get everything spaced farther towards the firewall that way. It looks like the only ones that aren't megabucks are the OBP and Tilton 600 series ones. Are there any others I should be considering? Not to put too fine a point on it, but stretching the budget to an AP pull type box isn't in the cards.
hello gtred,
you used up all of those PFC pads... and then some!
If your finding a limit of .78 with all of those pad manufacturers where seeing -1 with blues. the limit in braking G is not in the pads. I did mention before that the brakes don't stop the car, the tires do. do take some time a re-read the first few pages as we cover that topic in detail. i'ts hard to diagnose what changes have been made to the car from your first test to now.
from my experience .78G in braking is very low, on our data we see consistently see 1.03g on the PFC 10/11 combination maxxis rc-1 tire.that's using my driving and i'm not very good or aggressive. what device are you using to measure? if your using a hand held device like a phone or even a AiM solo. moving it's mounting point in the chassis will change the data. oh and if your going to have wine in the garage man rules dictate we use a mason jar :P JK.
Yes, I was thru the PFC's, the backing plate and was testing the mu of my caliper piston on that lap.
I'm using an AIM solo that's mounted on the steering wheel hub. Any better placement suggestion?
Thank you for giving me your baseline numbers of 1.03g. This is what I'll shoot for..
I've re-licensed / insured the car now, so I can try some "back road" tuning. Perhaps my problems stem from trying to dial in the brakes during a raceday...it's just too cumbersome to have to come into the hot pits, unbuckle the net, belts and Hans, then lift the hood to adjust the brakes during qualifying. And, you really can't get the speed you need just driving around the paddock without upsetting the Pit Marshal. The Rose cup race is at the end of the month, and I'd really like to participate; but it's a chicane race and I will need good brakes.
My set-up is: 225 Hoosier r's on 9" rims. 800#/425#/MCS/Eibach bars. I've got an 11.75 TSE BBK kit that I'll replace my std 11" Wilwood kit with. I'll probably use a set of Carbotech pads that I have; I think 8/10. OEM rear sport brakes. I've got some hydraulic bits + pieces ordered from Good-win, so hopefully I can assemble and tune the brakes without any more drama. l can try to tune the prop valve with ABS fuse pulled, or I might even remove the ABS completely, just to simplify.
All right, here's a kind of unusual question - I'm looking at floor mounted reverse type pedal box, which is to say the sort with the master cylinders pointing rearwards, on the theory that I can get everything spaced farther towards the firewall that way. It looks like the only ones that aren't megabucks are the OBP and Tilton 600 series ones. Are there any others I should be considering? Not to put too fine a point on it, but stretching the budget to an AP pull type box isn't in the cards.
I went with the tilton600 Reverse mounts. they sit a little closer. i have done one autocross since the install and the closer pedals weren't an issue. hardly noticed.
__________________ OG Racing
Your Source For Motorsports Safety Equipment WWW.OGRACING.COM
800.934.9112
703.430.3303 info@ogracing.com
Originally Posted by Mobius
Hopefully so, but let's hope it's never necessary. Experiencing your safety gear in action is ... not optimal.
Exactly the box I was looking at, thank you. I can kinda wish there was a trunion version that was reverse mount, but then I likely wouldn't be able to afford it, the same way I really really can't afford the pull type AP box. I did however see a setup on ebay once that had machined adapters to fit the 77 series master cylinders to a 2-bolt flange with a modified brake pedal to accept the Tilton trunion style balance bar - is that something off the shelf and do you have any idea how much better the 900 series pedal stuff is than the 600 series?
I have a question.. I just got a ASD Hydro E brake (Pass through style) for my 91 miata (1.6) and see the OEM e brake is ran by cable. Is it the same process to install as all of the other install DIY's i found; which is basically finding the brake line that goes from the master cylinder under the car and cut into/flare it before it splits off into the rear?
Just want to make sure this will work before i start cutting into lines.
Just received a pre-production Stoptech radial mount bridge bolt ST42 280mm (11") kit for an NA8 for evaluation. It comes with a 15/16" Sport master, Sport rear calipers, 1 piece rear rotors and race pads. ST42 is a burly caliper with staggered 36/30mm pistons.
The intent is to allow any generation chassis be it NA6, NA8, NB1 or NB2 and upgrade path that balance torque ratios front and rear. The system is modular so you can get it without the master or calipers or however you need it. The OEM stuff is all Centric new or reman. In the next few weeks I'll start a new thread with more pics and info as I get it. We'll stick this in Taxi with the 180whp race engine, Quaife sequential.
Pads are DR22 which is almost identical to a Wilwood 7816 in pad volume, around 3.0 inches. Piston area is between the small Superlight and the 1.38" Dynapro and Dynalite that most every else uses. Front rotors are nice 8 bolt 2 piece with left and right directional friction rings. By my math, the torque ratios should be pretty much spot on. Preliminary retail pricing looks attractive considering the caliper makes even the Dynapro 4 look flimsy. I'd equate it more to the Superlight in terms of apparent mass/rigidity.
Just received a pre-production Stoptech radial mount bridge bolt ST42 280mm (11") kit for an NA8 for evaluation. It comes with a 15/16" Sport master, Sport rear calipers, 1 piece rear rotors and race pads. ST42 is a burly caliper with staggered 36/30mm pistons.
The intent is to allow any generation chassis be it NA6, NA8, NB1 or NB2 and upgrade path that balance torque ratios front and rear. The system is modular so you can get it without the master or calipers or however you need it. The OEM stuff is all Centric new or reman. In the next few weeks I'll start a new thread with more pics and info as I get it. We'll stick this in Taxi with the 180whp race engine, Quaife sequential.
Pads are DR22 which is almost identical to a Wilwood 7816 in pad volume, around 3.0 inches. Piston area is between the small Superlight and the 1.38" Dynapro and Dynalite that most every else uses. Front rotors are nice 8 bolt 2 piece with left and right directional friction rings made by Coleman it looks like. By my math, the torque ratios should be pretty much spot on. They also have a 300mm (11.75") waiting in the wings but I'm not sure if that will make it to production. Preliminary retail pricing looks attractive considering the caliper makes even the Dynapro 4 look flimsy. I'd equate it more to the Superlight in terms of apparent mass/rigidity.
I need to get in the habit of calling you before ordering anything. I just wasted 2500 dollars with the radial mount dynapro.
Looks like it. We have two other two other radial mount kits that we are playing with now to compare it to on track. We're hoping we can come up with some conclusions and share that information in a new thread later.
Looks like it. We have two other two other radial mount kits that we are playing with now to compare it to on track. We're hoping we can come up with some conclusions and share that information in a new thread later.
Why does it look like your only using the upper 2/3's of the rotor? if your pads are using the full swept area you have some major rotor coning going on.
Originally Posted by aidandj
Getting what look like cracks in the rotor. Should I get new rotors? Or is this normal.
__________________ OG Racing
Your Source For Motorsports Safety Equipment WWW.OGRACING.COM
800.934.9112
703.430.3303 info@ogracing.com
Originally Posted by Mobius
Hopefully so, but let's hope it's never necessary. Experiencing your safety gear in action is ... not optimal.
07-14-2016, 02:17 AM
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