What to fix on my Fuel System? - Page 4 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 10-31-2015, 11:12 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by codrus View Post
IMHO staged injection is the right answer. I'm sure you can hire a fabricator to add four more bungs to the EUDM manifold for less than half the cost of a set of ID2000s.

--Ian
Good point. I'll see what that would cost and how to package it. Id rather do that. I did a search for the ID 2000s and ID 1700s and found a lot of high power people use the 1000 and 1300's and go staged injection when they need more vs using larger injectors.
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Old 10-31-2015, 11:12 PM   #62
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ID1700s are the "right" answer. Staged injection is a bandaid.

But do staged injection. I want to see you figure it out so I can try and run it will 2 sets of gt500 injectors

Pretty sure the 1700s are really new technology. Don't think much will be out there. Aren't they like $2k for 4?
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Old 10-31-2015, 11:16 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
ID1700s are the "right" answer. Staged injection is a bandaid.

But do staged injection. I want to see you figure it out so I can try and run it will 2 sets of gt500 injectors

Pretty sure the 1700s are really new technology. Don't think much will be out there. Aren't they like $2k for 4?
I can't even find the 1700s for sale at any price. Not sure what that means....
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Old 10-31-2015, 11:19 PM   #64
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The result is pressure and voltage sensitivity exceeding that of the ID1300, requiring only 9 volts to open consistently at 6 bar, and a flow rate of ≈ 2640 cc/min at 7 bar
Holy ****.

Call ID. I hear they are good people.
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Old 11-01-2015, 12:31 AM   #65
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They are excellent people. The cust service I got from them each time has been exemplary.

One of the reasons I use them on all my cars and recommend them to every single car I work on/tune.

If you call them they will answer each of your questions, and then you can share with us, because there isn't too much info out there on big boy fuel setups, and every bit helps.
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Old 11-01-2015, 01:04 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
ID1700s are the "right" answer. Staged injection is a bandaid.
Staged is not a band-aid, it will deliver a much better idle than 1700cc/min injectors.

There's not much to figure out, really. You modify the manifold, install four more injectors and another fuel rail, run some fuel to it, and tell the ECU about them. If you're low on injector drivers you can run them in batch mode, because you're only going to use them at high boost.

At least, you could with the Hydra (I did), I assume the MS is at least that capable.

--Ian
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Old 11-01-2015, 05:52 AM   #67
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You aren't getting as far on ID1000s because you're revving the motor higher. What is your fuel pulsewidth at ~7100rpm?

e: Just post your datalog.
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Old 11-01-2015, 02:05 PM   #68
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With 18 PSI pulley, 7,100 RPMs = 12.7ms

With 22 PSI pulley, 6,700 RPMs = 15.5ms (didn't rev to 7,100 on this pulley)
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Old 11-02-2015, 12:46 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
ID1700s are the "right" answer. Staged injection is a bandaid.

But do staged injection. I want to see you figure it out so I can try and run it will 2 sets of gt500 injectors

Pretty sure the 1700s are really new technology. Don't think much will be out there. Aren't they like $2k for 4?
Staged injection isn't a bandaid. Pretty much every fuel injected rotary engine has staged injection from the factory. On my 13b-REW I'm going to be running six ID1300's in three banks of two. Triple staged injection. Very easy to do with the Adaptronic at least in a rotary application.

Also a set of four ID1700's is definitely not $2k. See link below.



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I can't even find the 1700s for sale at any price. Not sure what that means....
Well you didn't look very hard then. T1 Race Development is ID's main outlet for their products. They are selling faster than they can pump them out so you might want to call for a lead time.

90-05 Miata, 1.6L / 1.8L | ID1700 |injector Dynamics | 1700.11.02.60.11.4 - Mazda - ID1700 - Fuel Injectors - Fuel Delivery - Category
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Old 11-02-2015, 01:32 AM   #70
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What are your gas-equivalent AFRs on E85? Anything richer than 12.0 is silly. Soviet was in the 12.5-12.6 range IIRC.
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Old 11-02-2015, 02:13 AM   #71
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What are your gas-equivalent AFRs on E85? Anything richer than 12.0 is silly. Soviet was in the 12.5-12.6 range IIRC.
11.5 gas equivalent. I'm going to 12.0:1, I know 11.5 is too rich. I'm new to tuning on E85.
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Old 11-02-2015, 12:25 PM   #72
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IIRC Theseus was in the low 12s. I wouldn't hesitate to park it at 12.3 or 12.4. Remember that we only run richer in boost to prevent detonation and reduce cylinder temperatures, and E85 solves both of those problems. You're basically looking for max power AFR, although that requires a dyno to determine
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Old 11-02-2015, 12:29 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
IIRC Theseus was in the low 12s. I wouldn't hesitate to park it at 12.3 or 12.4. Remember that we only run richer in boost to prevent detonation and reduce cylinder temperatures, and E85 solves both of those problems. You're basically looking for max power AFR, although that requires a dyno to determine
So then you tune gas AFRs to the point of det? Or do you keep them at a safe level? (And what level)
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Old 11-02-2015, 12:39 PM   #74
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There is no "point of det" most of the time. You don't just keep going, you stop when you stop making power easily.
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Old 11-02-2015, 12:41 PM   #75
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There is no "point of det" most of the time. You don't just keep going, you stop when you stop making power easily.
Duh. Stupid question.

So tune till you don't make power easily, unless you get det. Same as spark.

What AFRs do you target on CA gas? Don't you do most of your tuning off the dyno? Or do you use virtual dyno.
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Old 11-02-2015, 12:45 PM   #76
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With E I've run out of spark before I saw det or stopped making power.
I use both when possible. Depends on what the car will be used for, but low 11's on 91 water.

I agree with Sav though, and even said the same thing in a PM response to Pat a while ago (the part about running 12afr)

Though I'm not sure how much headroom .5afr will provide to the injectors.
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Old 11-02-2015, 01:11 PM   #77
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You lean it out until it stops making more power. There's (virtually) no fear of melting pistons or detonation, so no reason to run richer than max power.

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Though I'm not sure how much headroom .5afr will provide to the injectors.
Going from 11.5 to 12.3 would reduce DC% by ~6.5%
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Old 11-02-2015, 01:19 PM   #78
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Yeah with full time closed loop you're fine, but make sure you have at least 5% EGO correction for those times you may get a crappy batch (or make sure your flex fuel is working properly)

I've seen a full point swing in AFR between different tanks of E without touching anything.
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Old 11-02-2015, 02:15 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Yeah with full time closed loop you're fine, but make sure you have at least 5% EGO correction for those times you may get a crappy batch (or make sure your flex fuel is working properly)

I've seen a full point swing in AFR between different tanks of E without touching anything.
I'm at 11.5 right now, and TX the pumps say E70 minimum. I was hoping to see if a batch caused me to go lean, assuming I'd go from E85 to E70. Either way, I'd rather be on the richer side of safe, street car and all.

I've read you say here before you've seen a full point swing in AFR on E85 between batches. That's 1/2 the reason I was waiting to touch my AFRs, just to see if they move a lot this winter. So far, they have stayed the same every fill up since I did the conversion this summer.
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Old 11-02-2015, 02:32 PM   #80
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Yep, happened multiple times. I think it's when people have residual pump gas or when they go to different stations and one has min e70 and one min 85, which can swing the ethanol content by as much as 10-20%. I also hear that in other states the blend changes pretty significantly between summer/winter

Just set up EGO corr table to allow room for it and you should be fine.

On some of the OEM ecu's we tune we don't have closed loop in boost luxury, which is why many stay on the rich side
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