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Old 02-26-2009, 09:34 PM   #21
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What with going how when yesterday?
what are u trying to say?
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:09 PM   #22
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Times are tough now for sure. But why make those that are hanging on to their jobs pay the price?
Because it's the "United" states of America.

Not the "**** you I want to keep my own money and you can be homeless and sick" states of america.

we look out for our people. or at least some of us would.
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:15 PM   #23
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Yes **** happens and that's why I pay $300 for disability every month. I look out for myself. I don't need anyone giving me a handout.
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:16 PM   #24
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Times are tough now for sure. But why make those that are hanging on to their jobs pay the price? There are jobs out there, but not ones that people want. We couldn't hire an american if we needed one. And I know lots of other guys that say the same. Every college bound kid now-a-days wants a cushy office job, or a cushy "business man" job. WTF is going to happen when we run out of young americans to fill the steel worker jobs, roofing, foundations, excavators, carpenters, etc.
We send them to china, and then we do their banking and make the computers they use for manufacturing. In the end, we end up making the most money while spreading the wealth around the world.

Its free trade,


Comparative Advantage
Any single country is best off specializing in that good it is comparatively best at producing and exchanging for those goods it is comparatively less adept at producing.
- Same principle we use in our daily lives
- Every country has a comparative advantage; does not depend upon absolute productivity but rather on relative productivity.

Comparative Advantage
- The idea that countries should specialize in their economic production based on the opportunity costs of producing various goods.
- Comparative advantage is NOT about producing something cheaper.
- It is about producing what gives you the most profit. It is about using your resources wisely.


Factors of production
- Land
- Labor
- Capital (e.g. money and equipment)
- Human Capital



Patterns of Trade
- H-O theorem: “if there are two factors of production, a country will export products that are based on the intensive use of its relatively abundant factor and will import products whose production is based on the intensive use of the relatively scarce factor in its own economy”
- The U.S. specializes in producing goods that require comparatively large amounts of capital and human capital. This is the U.S. comparative advantage.
- The U.S. then exports capital and human capital intensive goods and imports good relatively intensive in unskilled labor.
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:23 PM   #25
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Because it's the "United" states of America.

Not the "**** you I want to keep my own money and you can be homeless and sick" states of america.

we look out for our people. or at least some of us would.
I forgot Y8s is the hero of America and would rather give the homeless guy a fish rather than teach him how. Ok dude, not sure how hard you work for your money. But I work WAY too hard to give it away to anyone that cant help themselves.

Give give give right? Isn't that why we are in this predicament?
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:28 PM   #26
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I forgot Y8s is the hero of America and would rather give the homeless guy a fish rather than teach him how. Ok dude, not sure how hard you work for your money. But I work WAY too hard to give it away to anyone that cant help themselves.

Give give give right? Isn't that why we are in this predicament?
No that isn't why we are in this predicament. At all. Simple and economics do not mix. The tools of economics that were in play were so ridiculously complex, I don't think Alan Greenspan even understood the instruments (MBS & CDO's).

Welfare was done with a long time ago. Current programs are "workfare". Thank a liberal democrat for those reforms (Bill Clinton).
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:30 PM   #27
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Absolutely your right. Life changing **** can happen to anyone. There are of course certain exceptions that make sense, like your sisters situation.

When I snapped my ligament at work last year and had to take 6 months off I got nothing. No money. (Family business = get fucked) However there's people out there fully capable of working that choose not to that collect weekly. Those are the piece of ***** I'm against.

Times are tough now for sure. But why make those that are hanging on to their jobs pay the price? There are jobs out there, but not ones that people want. We couldn't hire an american if we needed one. And I know lots of other guys that say the same. Every college bound kid now-a-days wants a cushy office job, or a cushy "business man" job. WTF is going to happen when we run out of young americans to fill the steel worker jobs, roofing, foundations, excavators, carpenters, etc.
Ok, I've done construction for several years during the summers so I can comment here. That work force will not run out in the foreseeable future IMO. Around here most guys don't go to college. They get out of HS and get a job. At least 10% of the guys that graduated in my HS class are currently into construction, another 20% or better doing ship building things for Northrop Grunman which happens to be located in 'goula. There's plenty of work and more than plenty of places to work. Problem is, as always, finding quality help. There's a lot of kids that can swing a hammer, be a helper, mix concrete, cut boards, get materials, etc. But not all of them can lay 15 square a day by them self, or frame out a wall to spec correctly, build steps and stairs, properly install a door or window, etc. So while they can keep a job and make a living as long as they have decent work ethics, most don't "care" enough to try to learn everything they can to better themselves and become a better/smarter worker at what they do. IE- Say we're remodeling a house and I'm finishing up whatever I was gonna do that day but our tile guy just came and he's gonna lay tile in two bathrooms and the laundry room that evening/night. I might would stay, off the clock, just to learn. Because that's a good skill to have and when you get enough skills in your pocket you make more.

As for the topic of the thread, we all know what Vash is talking about. Sure the 28 year old woman with 3 kids who's in and out of the hospital, widowed, etc deserves welfare/unemployment. That's the kind of situation it was designed for, to help people rightfully in need to get back on there feet. My mother was on disability for several years when she broke her back at work. After several years she recovered. She's has two jobs right now and one is at the place she was originally hurt at.
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:34 PM   #28
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All I wanted to get at was the situation at hand really. About whats going on right now. I'm happy to see a couple people on here though think like a hard working american should. Not like a puss pot goody two shoes liberal.

Socialism mean anything to anyone?
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:38 PM   #29
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Ok, I've done construction for several years during the summers so I can comment here.(...) She's has two jobs right now and one is at the place she was originally hurt at.
The thing about our system is, it helps the people who go to college and hurts the people who don't (at least in the United States). This will exacerbate over time. Downside of free trade, there is someone willing to do your job for less. More people have been lifted out of poverty in the last 30 years because of reform and free trade in countries like China and India than have ever before in the history of man.

These programs are there to offset the downsides of free trade. The point of them is to protect unskilled labor. Good part about the United States is, you have the choice and the chance to move within the system. Education is cheap and there is a lot of money available if its "expensive".

Majority of these social programs today are oriented at training and work based social welfare. Someone thought about that whole teach a man to fish saying apparently.
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:48 PM   #30
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Ok, I've done construction for several years during the summers so I can comment here. That work force will not run out in the foreseeable future IMO. Around here most guys don't go to college. They get out of HS and get a job. At least 10% of the guys that graduated in my HS class are currently into construction, another 20% or better doing ship building things for Northrop Grunman which happens to be located in 'goula. There's plenty of work and more than plenty of places to work. Problem is, as always, finding quality help. There's a lot of kids that can swing a hammer, be a helper, mix concrete, cut boards, get materials, etc. But not all of them can lay 15 square a day by them self, or frame out a wall to spec correctly, build steps and stairs, properly install a door or window, etc. So while they can keep a job and make a living as long as they have decent work ethics, most don't "care" enough to try to learn everything they can to better themselves and become a better/smarter worker at what they do. IE- Say we're remodeling a house and I'm finishing up whatever I was gonna do that day but our tile guy just came and he's gonna lay tile in two bathrooms and the laundry room that evening/night. I might would stay, off the clock, just to learn. Because that's a good skill to have and when you get enough skills in your pocket you make more.
Exactly exactly exactly!

Lets say 20% of HS students go into some type of construction instead of college. Is it safe to say maybe 5% want to learn, keep their jobs, make a good living. And the other ones are just numbers, laborers, mindless guys putting in time. I cant stand to get a guy or two on days we need extra help and watch them finger their ***** and milk the clock while I'm killing my **** cause now I have to pick up the slack.

And what percent of those numbers fall off the grid, lose job after job, give up, do heroin, become an alcoholic, become homeless, etc.

Local to me, its immigrant city. And that's fine with me. This is the united states of help people right? Well my family and I take care of a half a dozen Brazilian guys and keep them working. They have families, kids, property, farms, livestock.....investments, a life! Those are the people I help. Not the scum ***** that hold a sign at exit 5. Sorry.
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:50 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Vashthestampede View Post
Exactly exactly exactly!

Lets say 20% of HS students go into some type of construction instead of college. Is it safe to say maybe 5% want to learn, keep their jobs, make a good living. And the other ones are just numbers, laborers, mindless guys putting in time. I cant stand to get a guy or two on days we need extra help and watch them finger their ***** and milk the clock while I'm killing my **** cause now I have to pick up the slack.

And what percent of those numbers fall off the grid, lose job after job, give up, do heroin, become an alcoholic, become homeless, etc.

Local to me, its immigrant city. And that's fine with me. This is the united states of help people right? Well my family and I take care of a half a dozen Brazilian guys and keep them working. They have families, kids, property, farms, livestock.....investments, a life! Those are the people I help. Not the scum ***** that hold a sign at exit 5. Sorry.
I'm assuming those people you are helping are here legally? if not, you are part of the problem.
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:57 PM   #32
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The thing about our system is, it helps the people who go to college and hurts the people who don't (at least in the United States). This will exacerbate over time. Downside of free trade, there is someone willing to do your job for less. More people have been lifted out of poverty in the last 30 years because of reform and free trade in countries like China and India than have ever before in the history of man.

These programs are there to offset the downsides of free trade. The point of them is to protect unskilled labor. Good part about the United States is, you have the choice and the chance to move within the system. Education is cheap and there is a lot of money available if its "expensive".

Majority of these social programs today are oriented at training and work based social welfare. Someone thought about that whole teach a man to fish saying apparently.
Depends on your prospective. This is part of what drives free trade in the first place.

In my opinion, the problem starts at home. Parents don't do a good job at raising children the way they should be raised. It's the parents job to raise the kid right until they're 18. All to often this doesn't happen. I really believe that beneath it all, this is the real root of the problem. Anyone who thinks parenting, or a lack thereof, isn't part of the problem is a fool.
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:00 PM   #33
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Depends on your prospective. This is part of what drives free trade in the first place.

In my opinion, the problem starts at home. Parents don't do a good job at raising children the way they should be raised. It's the parents job to raise the kid right until they're 18. All to often this doesn't happen. I really believe that beneath it all, this is the real root of the problem. Anyone who thinks parenting, or a lack thereof, isn't part of the problem is a fool.
I agree 11111111111111111111111%, IMO this is the root of more than half of the problems in or sociaty if not more.
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:00 PM   #34
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Exactly exactly exactly!

Lets say 20% of HS students go into some type of construction instead of college. Is it safe to say maybe 5% want to learn, keep their jobs, make a good living. And the other ones are just numbers, laborers, mindless guys putting in time. I cant stand to get a guy or two on days we need extra help and watch them finger their ***** and milk the clock while I'm killing my **** cause now I have to pick up the slack.

And what percent of those numbers fall off the grid, lose job after job, give up, do heroin, become an alcoholic, become homeless, etc.

Local to me, its immigrant city. And that's fine with me. This is the united states of help people right? Well my family and I take care of a half a dozen Brazilian guys and keep them working. They have families, kids, property, farms, livestock.....investments, a life! Those are the people I help. Not the scum ***** that hold a sign at exit 5. Sorry.
Yeap. See it day in and day out. Lack of give-a-****. They don't care. That's the root problem that everything else stems from.
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:08 PM   #35
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I'm assuming those people you are helping are here legally? if not, you are part of the problem.
The guy that represents them, along with 50 other guys has tax papers for them and insurance. They are by no means citizens, but they are legal for work.

How exactly is that part of them problem? The thing people that yap yap yap about the immigrant **** don't realize is we need them. Maybe YOU don't, but some people need them. If we didn't have the brazilian guys we wouldn't be in business. My father is 68, and my brother is 46. My dad works on prints and does moderate labor in the field, my bro runs the jobs and can rock out all day but has a shot back and is going downhill. So that would leave me to do all the heavy work myself, all the work nobody wants to do myself.

My father has told me numerous stories about guys giving up by noon, refusing to trudge through 10 inches of mud, bitching about the rain, etc. These Brazilian guys show up every day, on time, ready to work, in good moods, and work however we need them to. I have seen so many guys come and go its a joke. Only a handful of americans, all were older than me and all of them were worthless.

Take away every immigrant worker in the US in a flash "boom". Ok, now you just lost X% of your "labor" workforce. Goodluck finding replacements willing to learn, let alone capable of the job.

These guys are going to come here anyway. If they have papers to pay tax, keep insurance, stay out of trouble, and work fulltime, then whats wrong with that? Sure theres immigrants here only to take advantage and are looking for a free ride. But theres americans here that are just as much a problem ie; deadbeat bitches
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:10 PM   #36
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****,you Americans got it good,our Canadian government loves to waste our hard earned tax dollars and donate them to people who choose not to work or have lame excuses why they cannot work(alcoholic's).

Where I live,our government likes to give drugs to Heroin addicts and give them a safe place to inject the drugs too.Vash,just be glad you don't live in Canada.

.....don't even get me started with the natives we have here and the perks they get.
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:17 PM   #37
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In my opinion, the problem starts at home. Parents don't do a good job at raising children the way they should be raised. It's the parents job to raise the kid right until they're 18. All to often this doesn't happen. I really believe that beneath it all, this is the real root of the problem. Anyone who thinks parenting, or a lack thereof, isn't part of the problem is a fool.


Can we make this a sticky?
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:20 PM   #38
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Depends on your prospective. This is part of what drives free trade in the first place.

In my opinion, the problem starts at home. Parents don't do a good job at raising children the way they should be raised. It's the parents job to raise the kid right until they're 18. All to often this doesn't happen. I really believe that beneath it all, this is the real root of the problem. Anyone who thinks parenting, or a lack thereof, isn't part of the problem is a fool.
Very true. My buddy I mentioned earlier was brought up in a rough environment and left to fend for himself right out of HS. No one to answer to ever, leaving him to do what he pleased. Into college, then out after a year. Maybe 20 jobs since then, all bottom dollar and all bottom barrel jobs.

I usually don't get into it with him, but he knows how I feel. It was his choice to drop out, and its his choice to stay in a rut. Sometimes I think he likes feeling sorry for himself. He started a new job and on the first day dropped a hammer on another workers face off a ladder. Needless to say lost the job. Accident or bad work ethics?

Not hating on him, he's my good friend for years. I just hate to see it going on right in front of me and nothing I say nor do gets him to wake up. He does however ask frequently if he can come hump forms with us, but I don't want to **** off my bro by bringing in a dud.
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:22 PM   #39
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The guy that represents them, along with 50 other guys has tax papers for them and insurance. They are by no means citizens, but they are legal for work.

How exactly is that part of them problem? The thing people that yap yap yap about the immigrant **** don't realize is we need them. Maybe YOU don't, but some people need them. If we didn't have the brazilian guys we wouldn't be in business. My father is 68, and my brother is 46. My dad works on prints and does moderate labor in the field, my bro runs the jobs and can rock out all day but has a shot back and is going downhill. So that would leave me to do all the heavy work myself, all the work nobody wants to do myself.

My father has told me numerous stories about guys giving up by noon, refusing to trudge through 10 inches of mud, bitching about the rain, etc. These Brazilian guys show up every day, on time, ready to work, in good moods, and work however we need them to. I have seen so many guys come and go its a joke. Only a handful of americans, all were older than me and all of them were worthless.

Take away every immigrant worker in the US in a flash "boom". Ok, now you just lost X% of your "labor" workforce. Goodluck finding replacements willing to learn, let alone capable of the job.

These guys are going to come here anyway. If they have papers to pay tax, keep insurance, stay out of trouble, and work fulltime, then whats wrong with that? Sure theres immigrants here only to take advantage and are looking for a free ride. But theres americans here that are just as much a problem ie; deadbeat bitches
I'm not even going to get into this debate with you.
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:25 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Depends on your prospective. This is part of what drives free trade in the first place.

In my opinion, the problem starts at home. Parents don't do a good job at raising children the way they should be raised. It's the parents job to raise the kid right until they're 18. All to often this doesn't happen. I really believe that beneath it all, this is the real root of the problem. Anyone who thinks parenting, or a lack thereof, isn't part of the problem is a fool.
Of course. Lets not even start to get into how vicious of a circle the parenting problem is.

I had a class on ethics and family values, and I've never seen a class get more enraged at the findings of some of the research. Especially when someone of it was race and/or based on a certain area of the country.

Namely, if you were born fucked, most likely you'll be raised fucked, and you'll live fucked, and raise fucked kids and so on and so forth.

I think the way to break the cycle is education and even funding for all schools in the country based on students. (Schools currently pull funding mostly from surrounding areas real estate taxes so an area that is already poor and impoverished gets pisspoor funding)


I want to point out, I dropped out of HS.

Now I'm about to graduate with my BA next year and off to law school. It can be done.
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