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Old 02-27-2009, 11:05 AM   #61
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I think socialism has been given a flawed rap. there's so much propaganda out there, people dont even know what it really is.

I'm pretty sure the people paying their taxes in sweden aren't surprised to pay them every month for their whole life. I'm also pretty sure the people receiving the benefits are at ALL class levels, not just the dirty poor.

The problem is, the US can't wrap its head around that system because it doesn't understand how it works.

A: You work hard and make $20 an hour and pay $5 of it in taxes but pay your own healthcare and it costs $75 a week. You take home $525/wk.

B: You work hard and make 20 an hour and pay $7 of it in taxes but healthcare is covered. You take home $520/wk.

That's just an example but you get the idea.
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Old 02-27-2009, 11:43 AM   #62
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Old 02-27-2009, 11:52 AM   #63
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and WHO are the slackers you're talking about??
People that milk the system to get by and do not work, or work as little as possible to get by while also milking the system. They do not want to work. Do you seriously not see this happening around you? It happens everywhere I've ever been. These are the people I don't want to pay my money to support. They CHOOSE to be in the situation they are in and they CHOOSE to stay in it. They are taking advantage of the system.

Right up from these people are the ones who put them self in a bad situation and rely on the system to get by, but they do work and are trying to work more, get a better job, get in more hours, and improve their situation. Perhaps they have a family they care for and want better for them. Here, I have mixed feelings. In some regards, it IS their own damn fault they got where they are. Nobody makes your decisions for you. They have no one to blame but them self. So in some ways I say **** them, let them struggle. But at the same time I also think if they're truly sincere about getting back on there feet, then perhaps they deserve some help.

I think what y8s and I don't agree on is who makes the decisions and who's responsible for them. I believe YOU make your own decisions and are in control of your life. If you choose to not go to college, choose to not specialize in any area of work, choose not to seek an apprenticeship program to learn a trade, decide to buy a new car and a house, decide to have kids, and then reality blindsides you and you can't make ends meet, it's your own damn fault. Deal with it and learn from your mistakes. If you work hard you can improve your situation. Have some decency to raise your children better and encourage them to make better choices than you did.
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:00 PM   #64
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People need to take a long, hard look at this graphic.





Federal spending is so out of control we will outstrip our tax receipts by a factor of two in the next 20 years. Nothing about the current or former adiminstriation's budget is sustainable.

One other thing you'll notice is the tax receipts percentage as it relates to GDP. Even in periods of very high tax rates, actual tax receipts generally remain level with very minor fluctuations.

Raising taxes to pay for these programs is not the answer. Reducing spending is the only way to bring the federal budget in line with something remotely sustainable.
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:04 PM   #65
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I do question the end result of the mortgage stuff, but only because I dont want my house to drop in value because of the housing market being artificially deflated by govt funding. HOWEVER... If I qualify for some of that money even if I dont need it, don't get me wrong, I will take it.

I want the name of your health ins company!!

See the thing is, if you got canada or somewhere like that, sure you pay a little more tax, but you get all of your healthcare taken care of. no $50 a week, no copay, nothing. or in my case, no money pulled out of your paycheck to fund part of it.

what's more, your employer (my employer) now doesn't have to cough up a few hundred dollars a month for my insurance anymore. they could either pay it to me or put it into the company. lets say they pay it to me... now it takes the pain off paying those extra taxes. and there is never a surge in healthcare costs for me. if I'm healthy, great. if fall off my roof, I dont pay a dime.



true, I can't help the world. and by standard of living, I mean those below poverty level. maybe the middle class. I doubt the rich need it if they're already rich.



No dry day, but GM disbanded Hummer because sales tanked. i bet that's close enough to a dry day if you do the math. I want to look for a gasoline sales trend for last year (in gallons) and see if there was a decline.

and WHO are the slackers you're talking about??
I had a friend that had been working for a bank since he was right out of HS, he's 26-27 now. He was one of the guys that gave mortgages out, that was his job. Needless to say he lost his job awhile back and had to sell his Mercedes (SLR I think) and move out of the million dollar mansion he was living in. People talk and gossip spreads, but from what I hear he was a part of the problem with handing out mortgages in this area. Thats how he had what toys he had, and thats why now they are all gone.

My insurance company is Oxford health insurance. I don't have a bad medical history, I don't get sick, I don't go to the doctors regularly. So the ligament surgery was my first run with them. Not sure how any of it works, but I was sure as **** expecting to pay at least $1k or so out of pocket. I was stoked to have it taken care of by Oxford.

The slackers I'm talking about are people like my friend I mentioned earlier for one. People that don't have people skills nor any work skills. They wander from job to job, losing one after another after another. Work for 2 weeks, then file for 2 months. They get a good job, but **** it up and go back to laziness and file again. There's alot of people out there that take this road, and they are all over the US in every state.

The people that are getting something for nothing. The ones that expect to be handed a check for doing nothing. The people that even if they were givin a job, would probably milk it, do nothing, and get fired. What DO you do with these people? I don't think giving them money or a house is helping one bit. Want to feed them sure. At least a deadbeat cant turn a sandwich into a needle or bag of crack. Maybe all these people need to be corraled up and put through some type of system that will feed them, shelter them, and teach them how to move ahead. Rather than a system that feeds them, shelters them, and lets them continue on their downward spiral.

Last edited by Vashthestampede; 02-27-2009 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:10 PM   #66
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There will always be social system in this country. The original and current system has the same intent. IMO it is needed to help people out of poverty and keep them out of it. The problem is, as long as there is a system, there will be people that figure out how to milk the system. Like the guy who bought a damn turbo for his miata, or the people who get disability benefits and there is nothing wrong with them, or the people that have more kids, get more government money and don't even spend it on the kids, or the people that hire illegal and try and justify it by saying no one else will do the work. Honestly, I don't think the system can ever really be fixed as long as there are so many people with no ethic and honesty in this country.
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:12 PM   #67
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The people that are getting something for nothing. The ones that expect to be handed a check for doing nothing. The people that even if they were givin a job, would probably milk it, do nothing, and get fired. What DO you do with these people? I don't think giving them money or a house is helping one bit. Want to feed them sure. At least a deadbeat cant turn a sandwich into a needle or bag of crack. Maybe all these people need to be corraled up and but through some type of system that will feed them, shelter them, and teach them how to move ahead. Rather than a system that feeds them, shelters them, and lets them continue on their downward spiral.
How about the bottom 40% of earners in the country with an effective tax rate of 0%, if not a negative %

That's what cracks me up about raising taxes on those who make over $250k. How about we get everone into the positive side of 0%; then we'll talk?
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:14 PM   #68
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Here's another graph to poke your eyes at.

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Old 02-27-2009, 12:18 PM   #69
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I had a friend that had been working for a bank since he was right out of HS, he's 26-27 now. He was one of the guys that gave mortgages out, that was his job. Needless to say he lost his job awhile back and had to sell his Mercedes (SLR I think) and move out of the million dollar mansion he was living in. People talk and gossip spreads, but from what I hear he was a part of the problem with handing out mortgages in this area. Thats how he had what toys he had, and thats why now they are all gone.

My insurance company is Oxford health insurance. I don't have a bad medical history, I don't get sick, I don't go to the doctors regularly. So the ligament surgery was my first run with them. Not sure how any of it works, but I was sure as **** expecting to pay at least $1k or so out of pocket. I was stoked to have it taken care of by Oxford.

The slackers I'm talking about are people like my friend I mentioned earlier for one. People that don't have people skills nor any work skills. They wander from job to job, losing one after another after another. Work for 2 weeks, then file for 2 months. They get a good job, but **** it up and go back to laziness and file again. There's alot of people out there that take this road, and they are all over the US in every state.

The people that are getting something for nothing. The ones that expect to be handed a check for doing nothing. The people that even if they were givin a job, would probably milk it, do nothing, and get fired. What DO you do with these people? I don't think giving them money or a house is helping one bit. Want to feed them sure. At least a deadbeat cant turn a sandwich into a needle or bag of crack. Maybe all these people need to be corraled up and but through some type of system that will feed them, shelter them, and teach them how to move ahead. Rather than a system that feeds them, shelters them, and lets them continue on their downward spiral.
Exactly. The majority of the people who are unskilled and have poor work ethics don't need money. They needs skills and work ethics. The lack of these is what gets 95% of the people where they are in the first place. Giving them money is giving them fish. They don't learn anything and continue what they're doing. I don't think it's possible to teach them though because they don't care. Can't teach give-a-****.

When my parents got divorced my dad told my mom to take anything and everything she wanted from our house. She took 98% of what we had. We had to assume over 25k worth of debt that she personally had run up. She got the car, we got the payment on it. Then she got the house too, we got the payment on it. Then she got 25k on top of that. And another 350 a month for alimony forever. And 400 a month for child support for my two sisters that live with her. While all the divorce was taking place, she kept demanding we send her child support for my two sisters. You know what we did? We brought bags of groceries to my sisters every week and told them to let us know if they got hungry, thirsty, or needed a place to stay.
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:23 PM   #70
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Huh? you used tax dollars to turbo your miata?
NAH. he used the tax dollars to pay off his credit card debt.....that paid for the turboing of the miata.

so it's all kosher
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Old 02-27-2009, 01:10 PM   #71
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I will agree with one point made earlier. People need to give a damn.

My dad worked hard his whole life. He didn't go to college. He got a job right out of high school and worked for 50 years after, diligently. That said, he didn't have the advantage of a higher education, so a fair number of those jobs were menial. He wanted better for me, and wanted me to go to college. That said, he instilled in me a sense of pride, and I was going to be damned if I let my dad have to foot the bill for me. I studied hard, kept my grades up, kicked that ACT's ***, and got merit based scholarships for myself. I paid my own way through college with scholarships and a part-time job. I'm proud as hell about that. Now I have a career and am kicking *** and taking names with that as well.

It can happen. But without my father's guidance, it may not have. It all comes down to upbringing. If I lived in a community where the norm was sitting on your *** collecting government income, I might see working for a living as an oddity. There's a large reason why poverty in the ghetto can be generational. It's lack of funding, lack of education, and lack of give-a-damn.

In a large way, I feel sorry for people who get dealt those cards in life. I feel that I've been fortunate. In a lot of ways, these people didn't have a snowball's chance in hell, right from day one.
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Old 02-27-2009, 01:41 PM   #72
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why should poor people give a damn when "hard working folk" dont?
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Old 02-27-2009, 02:11 PM   #73
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why should poor people give a damn when "hard working folk" dont?
Come on man, you cant be serious.

To better themselves. To man up and make a living for themselves. To do something with their lives.

Your ****** right I don't give a damn for the helpless poor folk. Not one bit. But any day of the week if a one of them showed up at the shop ready and willing to work, I'm sure my father would give them the chance. I have no problems with the individuals looking to better their lives and make something for themselves. But the ones that sit back and kick it while everyone else picks up the slack can get fucked.

I give a damn, but for my own well being. For my friends and loved ones I give a damn. And one day when/if I have a family of my own I will give a damn.

I have a heart, I've donated money to those fundraisers they have sometimes here and there at local stores. I'm not saying I only care about ME and that's that. Not at all. When I was younger, probably around 12-13 years old, I watched my mother write a check for $2500 and give it to a random employee at home depot. She overheard him talking about how he was going to lose his house, his kids didn't have food, and now his car just **** the bed. We got to the car and she told me what she heard and wanted to help. Wrote the check and gave it to the guy and he was in tears.

I was raised right, I have a heart, and I work for my ****. I do it the American way and I know its right. Those people that turn and say "well its how I was raised" use it as an excuse. Sure thats where the problem starts. But everyone has a brain and can use it. Its time for people to man the **** up and take responsibility instead on letting people like me do it for them. What if everyone that did work, that did pay tax, that did give a **** stopped. What if we all said **** it? Then what?
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Old 02-27-2009, 02:18 PM   #74
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wouldn't it be great if we were all perfect.
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Old 02-27-2009, 02:38 PM   #75
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wouldn't it be great if we were all perfect.
Being perfect and atleast trying to be self reliant are two totally different things. Did you look at the link I posted earlier? I'm willing to bet that there are PLENTY of people like that living for free off of the system. Those people need to be put to the curb.
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Old 02-27-2009, 02:43 PM   #76
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why should poor people give a damn when "hard working folk" dont?


WTF? Are you reading between the lines? You know god damn good and well what I meant and what vash means.
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Old 02-27-2009, 02:49 PM   #77
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wouldn't it be great if we were all perfect.
Do you not have anything intelligent to say? I'm sure there's a way to fix this by spending more money, right?
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Old 02-27-2009, 03:00 PM   #78
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why should poor people give a damn when "hard working folk" dont?
It's one thing for "hard working folk" to make a choice to care about people less fortunate than themselves. It's a whole different thing when people want it to be mandatory for them to take care of these folks.
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Old 02-27-2009, 03:08 PM   #79
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"He who will not work, neither shall he eat."


We have the fattest poor people in the world.

The poverty line has been continuously moved up since it's creation to where it now includes people with color TVs, cell phones, automobiles. Poverty used to mean that you didn't have enough to eat, or shoes...

If I was laid off right now I could have 4 or 5 different jobs by nightfall, just by walking in, asking, and acting like I gave a ****. They may not be jobs I would like, but that's not the ******* point, now is it?

There will always be people who don't give a ****. There always were. I shouldn't have what I have worked hard for taken from me at the point of a gun and given to someone who isn't doing anything for themselves. If they get hungry enough, they will work. Or they will lay around and mooch and continue to not give a ****. Either way, it's their problem.

BTW - The wealthy give a far higher percentage of their earnings to charity than the middle class. The wealthy give a far higher percentage to charity during periods of time when their taxes are proportionally lower than when it is higher.

And I came up dirt-*** poor.

What do you think happened to people for the first 150 years of this country? Those wasteful government programs didn't exist. Poor people busted their asses and took care of their families and got it done. They felt pride in having accomplished something. End of story.

Even one generation ago (or two for you little snots) people make their own clothes, didn't go out to eat but twice a year, and little boys used sticks as their toy guns and pine cones as hand grenades. They made soap box derby cars out of old wagons and scrap wood. Dad carried a lunch box to work. Families only had one car, and it wasn't bought "on time" (financed). You bought only what you could afford that month and only financed if you were too undisciplined to save up for something you wanted.

Funny how people actually did some things better back then than now.

Man up.
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Old 02-27-2009, 03:14 PM   #80
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You guys can't really think life is that simple can you? You work hard and you will be rewarded? You can't really buy into that propaganda can you?

Take random kid from the ghetto. What do you think his chances are in making himself better with out help? On his own he'll be a 3rd generation drug dealer who'll father 5 kids by different crack ******. With help he might be able to get away from that environment and have a bunch of kids that won't have to grow up in a ghetto, where the idea of success is being a hardcore dealer driving an SUV on bling bling 22s.

But you know what? **** that crack baby, he can do it the American way by working hard and making something of himself. He shouldn't need a hand out.

Pat, Vash please don't breed.
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