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Old 02-27-2009, 05:04 PM   #101
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Yeah, that was proposed too, right after the mentally incompetent were "cleaned" from the mental hospitals and right before the ghettos were cleared of inferior worthless people. The Jewish ghettos that is...


The point is, you can't just give up and say to people "You will never make it on your own." And to make it worse, you break their spirit and will to achieve by giving them things they haven't earned. That is such a disservice.
ignoring the **** comment!

no you can't demoralize and hand-out. that's not a good system. look, none of us on miataturbo.net are experts at social services, but even as non-experts, we all know a bad idea when we see it.
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:09 PM   #102
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How exactly are certain jobs not available? Please explain what you mean? Are you trying to say that kids from the ghetto don't have the chance that kids in the suburbs have? Or are you saying that kids from the ghetto have such a small chance of going to college that there are many jobs unavailable to them? Or both?
All of the above. And the fact that at a young age they aren't taught anything about responsibility of work ethic. Because everyone around they have neither. It isn't to say that they can't get past their environment and upbringing, but they sure as hell are going to have a hard ******* time doing it aren't they? What if they get hooked on smack at 13 years old? Sure they made some bad choices, but hell they are kids with out proper guidance all they can do is make bad choices.

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Because in reality, my father didn't even finish the 8th grade and owns his business and has run it successfully for 45 years! Now how in the **** did he do it? Maybe he was from PA and not the inner-city slums, but he came from nothing. He showed hard work and determination, he learned, he saved, and he made something for himself. Now he's instilling that in me and I'm grateful for it.
Ya for your dad. Bet he came from a hard working family right? Do you think he would have had the same drive if his family were a bunch of alcoholic welfare abusers? Maybe, but I'd be willing to be the majority wouldn't.

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To say "well they started off fucked so unless we help them they are fucked for good" is ignorant. Thats just aiding the losers of the country. Go ahead and walk around with your nose in the air, and your head up your ***, giving more and more and more to those undeserving and it'll probably in some way shape or form come back to **** you.
How is it ignorant. I recognize people that need help and suggest that society helps them. And I'm specifically speaking about children you ******* idiot. The parents aren't there to protect them and put them on a successful path, their community certainly isn't. This **** starts when they are pre-school, you might be able to reverse some of it when they start school but you'll need a very effective program to do it. That takes $$$.

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I cant argue with liberals that think everything is cookies and cream. What the **** happened to the hard working American dream? The idea that if you work for it, anything is possible. Why all this talk about hands outs. Were you guys really raised that way? Got what you wanted all the time? Always had someone by your side to say "good job boy"? Come on, wake up.
You not being able to argue with me has nothing to do with my politics. It has to do with the fact that you are wrong.

I'm not talking about ******* hand outs. I'm talking about fixing broken kids. Those kids will in turn probably end up being decent adults. Who will have decent kids. This is the future.
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:15 PM   #103
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That is both the fault of the fatties and the corporations allowed to make whatever unhealthy food they want flood the market. You can't smoke pot, but you can eat McDonalds 7 days a week. Which would kill you faster? What is it with liberals and corporations? I know plenty of poor fat people (country people) who don't have access to fast food, but eat **** cooked in lard and bacon grease at every meal. They eat everything fried from the flat cornbread to the chicken, ham, battered steaks, catfish...everything. Stop falling for the "Oh my god, the people are stupid and the corporations are killing them and we need the GOVERNMENT to save everybody" trap.

Companies sell whatever dumb ************* will buy, from FUBU to Victoria's Secret, from McDonalds to Malt Liquor.

Liberty is the opposite of government control. Embrace that. It is a good thing. Love the diversity of freedom. Ebrace the Big Mac, don't hate it. Nobody said you have to eat it, but who are you to tell me I can't?



Is that what the "american dream" is? slaving away for something you detest just so you can eat? I'd like to think I aspire to more. As do I, but I will work at something I hate before I will take money that has been stolen from others.

I doubt, with unemployment at whatever crazy 7 or 8 percent, that there will be a whole lot of even those jobs people would not like. the crowds in front of home depot are getting big these days. you can't hardly load stuff in your car without someone walking up and trying to help for "tips". And those guys would probably do just about any work they could find.
People will get snotty with you if you suggest they work somewhere that is beneath them. Those guys probably are looking for work, they just might not be looking where the work actually is...


The "when I was a kid" is largely invalid. Nothing is like it was 50 years ago. my dad was in his prime then and thinks he can still get a pair of shoes for $1.00. A lot more things are available cheap than were even 20 years ago. The world is a pretty small place now.
I was intimating that we won't do what we have to to survive if we think it is beneath us. People forget just how little they really need to make it. (But I just can't give up my...cell phone, internet, cable TV, second car, evenings out, restaurants, brand name clothes, new car payment, vacations, sporting events, etc.)

But you know, I try to reuse stuff when I can. Consumerism is just as bad as laziness, Not even close. Being a consumer is a wonderful thing, as long as you remain within your budget, because it also means that you are producing something to earn the ability to consume. It's called capitalism and it's not a dirty word. It's what makes us great...but that's another discussion.
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:26 PM   #104
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How come I come from a super hard-working family, but I'm lazy as hell? Can the opposite be true?
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:29 PM   #105
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What is it with liberals and corporations? I know plenty of poor fat people (country people) who don't have access to fast food, but eat **** cooked in lard and bacon grease at every meal. They eat everything fried from the flat cornbread to the chicken, ham, battered steaks, catfish...everything. Stop falling for the "Oh my god, the people are stupid and the corporations are killing them and we need the GOVERNMENT to save everybody" trap.

Companies sell whatever dumb ************* will buy, from FUBU to Victoria's Secret, from McDonalds to Malt Liquor.

Liberty is the opposite of government control. Embrace that. It is a good thing. Love the diversity of freedom. Ebrace the Big Mac, don't hate it. Nobody said you have to eat it, but who are you to tell me I can't?
I'd rather keep the discussion on an adult level without using condescending terms like "falling for".

The thing with liberals and corporations or any other entity that's allowed to do whatever it wants is that they are allowed to do whatever they want. I dont trust most people because they dont DESERVE my trust. Freedom is the real trap. Freedom is what allows people to do stuff that drives me nuts or imposes on MY lifestyle.

You can't have pure freedom and liberty and you can't have absolute regulation. Neither is a good plan. You need balance. Even all the conservatives and republicans are saying "the economy was too unregulated".

You know what the real problem is? We let our friends and families get away with doing stupid ****.

Here's a way to start making changes that doesn't cost a dime: tell them to knock it off and dont let them get away with it. stand up to them. educate them. that's who I am. I'm telling you that eating your big mac every day is killing you. know that you are killing yourself instead of just blindly going about your stupid habits.

I have a serious problem with people that have a lack of self-awareness.
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:38 PM   #106
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Yeah, that was proposed too, right after the mentally incompetent were "cleaned" from the mental hospitals and right before the ghettos were cleared of inferior worthless people. The Jewish ghettos that is...


The point is, you can't just give up and say to people "You will never make it on your own." And to make it worse, you break their spirit and will to achieve by giving them things they haven't earned. That is such a disservice.
Godwin'd before 100 posts. Excellent.
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:38 PM   #107
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This is quite possibly one of the best debates to date...I'm literally waiting for the next slew of posts, and there is not a shred of sarcasm in this statement

Please continue on
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:53 PM   #108
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fueling the fire:

howabout that octo-lady that now has 14 children, no husband, and no job that us taxpayers are going to support?

do i get joint custody since i am taking care of them?

discuss.......
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:55 PM   #109
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I completely agree with the idea that when need to help the next generation, thats pretty much our duty. So I have no argument there.

Freedom is ours to embrace yes, not abuse. Everyone has a mind of their own and can make their own choices. They don't need people that think they are better than everyone walking around with signs picketing in front of places of business to tell them whats good for them. Thats completely arrogant to say "we'll I'm gonna tell everyone how it is". Who the **** says your idea is the right idea.

Like this whole deal with marijuana thats going on right now. Geez, I don't know. Alcohol is taxed and regulated, same with tobacco, taxed and regulated. Both kill how many people a year? Both are bad for you. Yet for some reason marijuana is against the law.

Now lets take marijuana and tax and regulate it among the US. More money and less drug dealers. 2 positives right off that bat. I know its not that simple, but you get the idea.
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:57 PM   #110
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I'd rather keep the discussion on an adult level without using condescending terms like "falling for". Kewl.

The thing with liberals and corporations or any other entity that's allowed to do whatever it wants is that they are allowed to do whatever they want.
That's what freedom is. That's the opportunity that makes people risk their lives to come here. Self determination of what I can and can't do or can and can't achieve. Not Yates's determination of what I can and can't do, make or achieve. Or the gov't sdetermination of what I can or can't make or acheive. In some parts of the world the government tells you what your career will be, or runs your business operations for you.
I dont trust most people because they dont DESERVE my trust. Freedom is the real trap. Freedom is what allows people to do stuff that drives me nuts or imposes on MY lifestyle. I'm curious for some explaination of this one. I don't understand.

You can't have pure freedom and liberty As long as it doesn't deprive others of their liberties and property, why not?

and you can't have absolute regulation. Neither is a good plan. You need balance. Even all the conservatives and republicans are saying "the economy was too unregulated". I was saying that certain types of regulation were exactly the culprit.

You know what the real problem is? We let our friends and families get away with doing stupid ****. Truth.

Here's a way to start making changes that doesn't cost a dime: tell them to knock it off and dont let them get away with it. stand up to them. educate them. that's who I am. I'm telling you that eating your big mac every day is killing you. know that you are killing yourself instead of just blindly going about your stupid habits. But it should be legal for people to make silly, foolish, unhealthy descisions. They call it self-determination. You determine what happens to you.

I have a serious problem with people that have a lack of self-awareness. What does that pop-psychology term actually mean in this case?
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Old 02-27-2009, 06:00 PM   #111
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Its like a video game that lets you choose your own destiny....its called real life.
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Old 02-27-2009, 06:14 PM   #112
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I completely agree with the idea that when need to help the next generation, thats pretty much our duty. So I have no argument there.It is also our duty not to pass-on an America bereft of the freedoms that were there when we inherited it. We also shouldn't pass on an America so indebted because of it's huge non-contributory organs that it is unable to be sustained.

Freedom is ours to embrace yes, not abuse. Everyone has a mind of their own and can make their own choices. They don't need people that think they are better than everyone walking around with signs picketing in front of places of business to tell them whats good for them. Thats completely arrogant to say "we'll I'm gonna tell everyone how it is". Who the **** says your idea is the right idea. Amen, brother. And I will fight for Yates' right to disagree with me 'till my last breath.

Like this whole deal with marijuana thats going on right now. Geez, I don't know. Alcohol is taxed and regulated, same with tobacco, taxed and regulated. Both kill how many people a year? Both are bad for you. Yet for some reason marijuana is against the law.

Now lets take marijuana and tax and regulate it among the US. More money and less drug dealers. 2 positives right off that bat. I know its not that simple, but you get the idea.
Let's not hash out the pot debate today. I don't care if you do it.
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Old 02-27-2009, 06:17 PM   #113
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fueling the fire:

howabout that octo-lady that now has 14 children, no husband, and no job that us taxpayers are going to support?

do i get joint custody since i am taking care of them?

discuss.......
Drop a quarter in the slot and buy an opinion, will you?
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Old 02-27-2009, 06:20 PM   #114
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.
your reply method makes it real hard to reply to your posts... it's easy enough to type in the quote /quote in brackets if you like.

anyway, I've got a happy hour to get to so this will be short and sweet. but I didnt want to leave without stroking tvalenziano...

re: freedom: I dont like to sing god bless america at baseball games. I dont want religion forced upon me because someone else is free to practice it. thats just a quick example. similarly, you dont want your across-the-street neighbors to have gay sex in their front window.

as for depriving others of their liberty and property, that line is virtually undrawable. there will always be disagreement and conflict on how far I can take MY liberties before they impose on YOUR liberties. I return to the god bless america thing. what about drunk driving? it might be ok out in rural oklahoma, but not in manhattan...

self-awareness: the slovenly fat bastards shopping at walmart are killing themselves and our economy and they dont even know it. it's practically a rural rite to be greeted at a wal-mart, yet most of their money goes right to chinese suppliers and they are very widely known for their substandard treatment/payment of their employees.

self-awareness is understanding the implications of the things you do, good or bad, and making the decision to still do them consciously, even if they have a negative outcome. I suspect 90% of walmart patrons just go there becuase they sell cheap **** and consider nothing beyond the price tag.

time for beer!
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Old 02-27-2009, 06:27 PM   #115
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I'd rather keep the discussion on an adult level without using condescending terms like "falling for".

The thing with liberals and corporations or any other entity that's allowed to do whatever it wants is that they are allowed to do whatever they want. I dont trust most people because they dont DESERVE my trust. Freedom is the real trap. Freedom is what allows people to do stuff that drives me nuts or imposes on MY lifestyle.

You can't have pure freedom and liberty and you can't have absolute regulation. Neither is a good plan. You need balance. Even all the conservatives and republicans are saying "the economy was too unregulated".

You know what the real problem is? We let our friends and families get away with doing stupid ****.

Here's a way to start making changes that doesn't cost a dime: tell them to knock it off and dont let them get away with it. stand up to them. educate them. that's who I am. I'm telling you that eating your big mac every day is killing you. know that you are killing yourself instead of just blindly going about your stupid habits.

I have a serious problem with people that have a lack of self-awareness.
And all the laws and regulations from the government don't impose on everyone's lifestyle and inconvenience them at times too? The stimulus crap just drives me nuts.

I agree there needs to be a balance.

I'm also am a firm believer in the American dream. Sure there are cases where someone was born into a bad situation OR perhaps they had a lot of **** happen when they were young or perhaps they didn't have a picture perfect childhood. You know what? That's called life. **** happens to everybody on some level. You know what else? You might think that a bad childhood can negatively influence a kids future. You're right, it very well could. But you know what else? It could also be the motivation behind them to get away from that and to do better.

This is why I'm in college. I'm not that smart. I grew up around family and relatives that are border line poverty and very uneducated (not my dad and mom, but the rest of my immediate family is terrible) After a while I figured out I didn't want to be like them. In 7th grade a black friend of mine who was in 8th grade told me I should go to college and be a mechanical engineer. I didn't even know what a mechanical engineer was, but that's what he said I should be. That was the first time anyone ever told me I should go to college. My senior year of high school I was planning to go to the local Jr. college. Had a scholarship too. February before I graduated a high school a teacher I knew said I should go to MSU. He said I was smart and I could get in. That was the first time I ever considered going to a big university. We talked for a couple hours that day after school and a few days later I applied and I got in. Even got a scholarship up here for my first year. Funny enough, my first year I lived in a dorm, and of all things, the black guy who told me to go to college for ME way back lived two doors down from my dorm.

Now this is my 3rd year and though I'm not the highest in my class, I'm making it. It's tough but if it was easy everybody would be doing it.

In the last 3 years I've actually gotten 4 different people I know to go to college. One was another black friend of mine that worked at McDonalds. He has a sad story for a shitty childhood that could match anything you could think of. I got him to go back to high school and graduate and now he's going to the Jr. college and plans to come up here in a couple years for ME.

Another friend of mine that has a shitty childhood that could match any of them finally got into college after we talked about it probably 200 hours. He just didn't believe in himself. This is his second semester but he's doing fine and has a plan now. He's doing something with his life now and he's very happy he's in college now.

Anyways, I know it's not easy but I believe everyone can reach their dreams if they try. Encouragement helps a ton though. Funny, but one of my friends that I got to go to college has also got one of his friends to sign up too. Funny how a little goes a long way.

EDIT: BTW, this costed me and the govt. $0.00.
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:13 PM   #116
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your reply method makes it real hard to reply to your posts... it's easy enough to type in the quote /quote in brackets if you like.
I'm driving around typing on my laptop with it in the center console. This was more convenient, pour moi.
anyway, I've got a happy hour to get to so this will be short and sweet. but I didnt want to leave without stroking tvalenziano...

re: freedom: I dont like to sing god bless america at baseball games. Unlike taxes being confiscated for deadbeats, you are not compelled by law to participate. I dont want religion forced upon me because someone else is free to practice it. thats just a quick example. similarly, you dont want your across-the-street neighbors to have gay sex in their front window. And they might not want to watch me gut a hog hanging from a tree in the front yard, but frankly neither should be illegal. I personally will always err on the side of freedom, if there is a question. Every year congress makes new laws restricting freedom. Once a freedom is lost, it is seldom regained. I guard my freedoms and yours jealously.

as for depriving others of their liberty and property, that line is virtually undrawable. there will always be disagreement and conflict on how far I can take MY liberties before they impose on YOUR liberties. I return to the god bless america thing. what about drunk driving? it might be ok out in rural oklahoma, but not in manhattan... I believe having an accident while intoxicated should carry a stiffer pentalty, but simply being intoxicated, not so much.

self-awareness: the slovenly fat bastards shopping at walmart are killing themselves and our economy and they dont even know it. it's practically a rural rite to be greeted at a wal-mart, yet most of their money goes right to chinese suppliers and they are very widely known for their substandard treatment/payment of their employees.
You shouldn't hate Wal-mart for doing exactly what they are supposed to do. They provide a valuable service to people who would otherwise not be able to afford the same goods. If they weren't doing a good job of giving people what they want, then they would be eclipsed by a competitor.

You seem to generally dislike success. I find that interesting. Successful people hire people and give them jobs. Success should be rewarded so that more people are successful. There would be more jobs. Instead, taxes are going up on the successful. That means less jobs and less reinvestment in their businesses.


self-awareness is understanding the implications of the things you do, good or bad, and making the decision to still do them consciously, even if they have a negative outcome. I suspect 90% of walmart patrons just go there becuase they sell cheap **** and consider nothing beyond the price tag.
Condemnation of people for making descisons that you disagree with is actually fine with me. Making efforts to control their descisions is simply wrong.

time for beer!
.
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:19 PM   #117
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Everyone will be enthralled to hear that the major area money was pulled from the stimulus bill during senate negotiations was the education sector. Out of 787 billion dollars only a tiny tiny fraction will be sent to public education.
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:24 PM   #118
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And all the laws and regulations from the government don't impose on everyone's lifestyle and inconvenience them at times too? The stimulus crap just drives me nuts.

I agree there needs to be a balance.

I'm also am a firm believer in the American dream. Sure there are cases where someone was born into a bad situation OR perhaps they had a lot of **** happen when they were young or perhaps they didn't have a picture perfect childhood. You know what? That's called life. **** happens to everybody on some level. You know what else? You might think that a bad childhood can negatively influence a kids future. You're right, it very well could. But you know what else? It could also be the motivation behind them to get away from that and to do better.

This is why I'm in college. I'm not that smart. I grew up around family and relatives that are border line poverty and very uneducated (not my dad and mom, but the rest of my immediate family is terrible) After a while I figured out I didn't want to be like them. In 7th grade a black friend of mine who was in 8th grade told me I should go to college and be a mechanical engineer. I didn't even know what a mechanical engineer was, but that's what he said I should be. That was the first time anyone ever told me I should go to college. My senior year of high school I was planning to go to the local Jr. college. Had a scholarship too. February before I graduated a high school a teacher I knew said I should go to MSU. He said I was smart and I could get in. That was the first time I ever considered going to a big university. We talked for a couple hours that day after school and a few days later I applied and I got in. Even got a scholarship up here for my first year. Funny enough, my first year I lived in a dorm, and of all things, the black guy who told me to go to college for ME way back lived two doors down from my dorm.

Now this is my 3rd year and though I'm not the highest in my class, I'm making it. It's tough but if it was easy everybody would be doing it.

In the last 3 years I've actually gotten 4 different people I know to go to college. One was another black friend of mine that worked at McDonalds. He has a sad story for a shitty childhood that could match anything you could think of. I got him to go back to high school and graduate and now he's going to the Jr. college and plans to come up here in a couple years for ME.

Another friend of mine that has a shitty childhood that could match any of them finally got into college after we talked about it probably 200 hours. He just didn't believe in himself. This is his second semester but he's doing fine and has a plan now. He's doing something with his life now and he's very happy he's in college now.

Anyways, I know it's not easy but I believe everyone can reach their dreams if they try. Encouragement helps a ton though. Funny, but one of my friends that I got to go to college has also got one of his friends to sign up too. Funny how a little goes a long way.

EDIT: BTW, this costed me and the govt. $0.00.
Yes, this is the land of opportunity, too.
Not the land of guaranteed success, but opportunity. You can do as little or as much as your drive and god-given talents will allow. And supposedly you can do it here without "the man" standing in your way. Not so much as it used to be.
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:25 PM   #119
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Hang on a second, can someone even tell me what is being debated?

Sounds like its been morphed into a basic govt intervention vs non govt intervention, am I right? Or is it the govt giving away money? Because I think I showed earlier that isn't happening to "dead beat" individuals, its being given to corporations.
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:29 PM   #120
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Well $700 million new dollars was directed to support abortion clinics for some reason. I don't care about the issue, but IDK how that is stimulus for the economy exactly and thought it was weird.
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