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Old 03-07-2012, 07:50 AM   #101
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It has been too long since we had a hurricane in Florida for you to remember, I guess. We flash red as a default when the lights are inoperable.
I have lived in Florida for about 30 years, continuously. I remember plenty of hurricanes. I have also driven through plenty of flashing yellows during bad storms in the last couple of years.

Unfortunately, I can't find anything with a quick Google search to clarify one way or another and I don't have enough invested in the argument to look more. So, you win. Congrats on that.

Quote:
Florida Driver's Handbook
6.1 - Traffic Control Signals
Traffic signals are placed at intersections to keep traffic moving and to avoid a crash. Drivers, pedestrians, and bicycle riders must obey these
signals, except when an officer is directing traffic. Stop on the stop line if your car is nearest the signal. Some signals change only when a car is
at the stop line. If traffic signals are out of order, treat the light as if it is a four-way stop sign.
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:09 AM   #102
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Now, does "out of order" mean flashing or completely not on at all? I'd assume they mean that it's not on at all...no flashies...nothing.
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:38 AM   #103
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Now, does "out of order" mean flashing or completely not on at all? I'd assume they mean that it's not on at all...no flashies...nothing.
Good question.

When looking back at the PA handbook, it says to treat flashing red as stop, flashing yellow as caution, and an "inoperable" traffic light as a four-way stop.

How do you guys interpret that? Any condition of a traffic light aside from normal = 4 way, or a completely out light = 4 way?

If the first scenario, why do they default to flashing yellow on main road and flashing red on side road? Wouldn't they just default to flashing red both ways?
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:45 AM   #104
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If the first scenario, why do they default to flashing yellow on main road and flashing red on side road? Wouldn't they just default to flashing red both ways?
Logic? Why make traffic on a busier road come to a stop? Worst case for people who get a flashing red is that they have to go right instead of trying to make a left...or simply having to wait for traffic to clear.
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:48 AM   #105
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Logic? Why make traffic on a busier road come to a stop? Worst case for people who get a flashing red is that they have to go right instead of trying to make a left...or simply having to wait for traffic to clear.
No, no, I'm with you.

I'm just saying, if they mean to interpret "inoperable" (the situation where you would treat it as a 4-way) as any malfunction, then they should have the lights all flash red by default..

I wasn't clear...
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Old 03-07-2012, 10:06 AM   #106
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I think it's a hierarchy. I cannot recall having seen a traffic signal completely out. They have always defaulted to a flashing condition.

If the intersection seems to have one road that is significantly busier (e.g. major road and side-street intersection), that through traffic may have a flashing yellow and the cross-traffic may have a flashing red. If neither of the intersecting roads are clearly "more major" or "busier" (e.g. two side-streets), there may be a four-way flashing yellow.


Because of this confusion, in my opinion, the safest and most courteous thing to do is to treat an inoperable intersection as a four(+) way stop. That means approaching the intersection at a slower-than-normal pace and coming to a gradual stop, not slamming on the brakes at the last second.
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Old 03-07-2012, 10:40 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Doppelgänger View Post
With said intersection, at no point does someone making a right have the right of way to someone making a left (from a legal standpoint). The YIELD sign for right turns ensures this. If I hit the side of you or you hit the side of me, you'd be in the wrong for not yielding.
We both have to technically yield, I do this every day. You are correct, if I hit the side of you, I'd be at fault.

The car coming at me in the left turn lane with a green solid light, has to "yield the right-of-way to vehicles coming from the other direction and pedestrians in the intersection."

When I'm in the right turn lane with a yield sign, I have to "slow down as you come to the intersection. Be prepared to stop. Let any vehicles, pedestrians or bicyclists safely pass before you proceed."

This is how it's written in our driving manual, and there's important language with each. I have to let ---- pass before I proceed and you have to yeild the way...

So as long as you haven't really turned first, I should be able to just drive through the right turn, stopping if you had made the turn and I might hit you if I pull out in front of you. But if not, I should just shoot through the turn WOT in 3rd gear like I always do in front of you with no worry...I'll let you run into the back of me and you'll be at fault by default

Even if you had a green arrow, the same should apply to be honest: I'd just need to make sure not to hit anyone turning left as I come to right yeild turn. pretty simple.
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:02 AM   #108
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We've got a busy commercial area in my city. At night, probably 80% of the lights switch to flash-mode where the main thoroughfare has flashing yellow, and the side streets have flashing red - the few major intersections function as normal stoplights. In my understanding, a light that is flashing yellow + red is not "out of order", and thus is only a 2-way stop. That light is simply functioning (properly) in a different traffic control mode.
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:20 AM   #109
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I can't stand when drivers go slower than traffic speed in the left lane on the highway. Unsafe passing ends up happening in the right lane because a driver is too oblivious to move over for faster traffic. Saw way too much of this coming up I-81 N yesterday. The right lane is for slower traffic and the left lane is for faster traffic and passing.

I read something attributing the safety of the autobahn to the lawful necessity of passing in the left lane ONLY and religious adherence to getting out of the way. Too bad most Americans have no sense for this.
Zealous enforcement of traffic laws and rigorous driver training. After having spent a month in the UK last August, I have realized American driving and drivers are a complete joke. Ask anyone in their 60's when the last time they had to pass a written driver's exam was. Odds are, if they have not moved, they haven't since their first one.

I used to think traffic cameras and automated radar stations were wrong, and I supported the AAA's efforts to keep them limited. Now I have completely reversed that opinion. If you're going to have a traffic law, make it a damn law instead of a suggestion! Why/how is it an invasion of privacy for the 3 people who ran the red light on their turning lane, turning in front of me, blocking my direction of traffic, to get a ticket for their obvious traffic infraction?

Why have a high speed chase endangering everyone around, when a radar camera on a bridge overpass can snap the picture and be done with it?

How many people would pass on the right if the camera sent them a ticket for that? Yes, the cameras and the software controlling them can do that.

There were still opportunities to speed in the UK. But all of the traffic was much better behaved and more logical, even during traffic jams, than anywhere I've ever driven here.

I totally support the cameras now. Bring'em on.

Edit: and American drivers should be retested every 4 years. And every state should do a proper vehicle inspection periodically. Here in Oregon, once it's tagged, I don't think it's ever re-inspected, even if it's sold.
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:21 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
In my understanding, a light that is flashing yellow + red is not "out of order", and thus is only a 2-way stop. That light is simply functioning (properly) in a different traffic control mode.
I would agree 100% in that context. I am thinking more of a busy intersection in which the traffic light never enters a flashing mode under normal circumstances. I am 99% sure I can think of an instance where all lanes of a four-way intersection (probably 11 lanes total of traffic) had a flashing yellow light.

If everyone treated that as a "slow down but do not stop" signal, it would have been carnage. Pun intended.
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:53 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
I totally support the cameras now. Bring'em on.
Many objections involved improper use of some cameras and improperly or artifically low posted speed limits. For example, in several studies, the safety of many intersections improved more from better timed lights than from adding red light cameras. However, revenue increased more from short yellows + red light cameras...

Likewise, if not for groups like the National Motorist Association, we might still be driving around at 55 MPH on US highways and interstates. There has been no documented correlation to the "speed kills" trope that safety groups raised back when that speed was increased.

See below:

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And every state should do a proper vehicle inspection periodically. Here in Oregon, once it's tagged, I don't think it's ever re-inspected, even if it's sold.
I see you would have scored high on the "Authoritarian" portion of the political compass.

In 2010, Oregon experienced one of the highest reductions in traffic death rates (fatalities per 100 million miles travelled). Florida, which has no inspections to speak of - at any point in ownership - experienced the lowest death rate in the state's history at 1.25 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles travelled.
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:53 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
Zealous enforcement of traffic laws and rigorous driver training. After having spent a month in the UK last August, I have realized American driving and drivers are a complete joke. Ask anyone in their 60's when the last time they had to pass a written driver's exam was. Odds are, if they have not moved, they haven't since their first one.

I used to think traffic cameras and automated radar stations were wrong, and I supported the AAA's efforts to keep them limited. Now I have completely reversed that opinion. If you're going to have a traffic law, make it a damn law instead of a suggestion! Why/how is it an invasion of privacy for the 3 people who ran the red light on their turning lane, turning in front of me, blocking my direction of traffic, to get a ticket for their obvious traffic infraction?

Why have a high speed chase endangering everyone around, when a radar camera on a bridge overpass can snap the picture and be done with it?

How many people would pass on the right if the camera sent them a ticket for that? Yes, the cameras and the software controlling them can do that.

There were still opportunities to speed in the UK. But all of the traffic was much better behaved and more logical, even during traffic jams, than anywhere I've ever driven here.

I totally support the cameras now. Bring'em on.

Edit: and American drivers should be retested every 4 years. And every state should do a proper vehicle inspection periodically. Here in Oregon, once it's tagged, I don't think it's ever re-inspected, even if it's sold.


Wouldn't it be even nicer if we had unlimited resources and infrastructure so we could build a 2 tiered road system. One for the regulars and one for those who can drive a bit better and handle higher speeds and wow - 0.7G's of cornering force. How many people here believe they could drive 25% faster than posted limits and still be in full control? (excepting ice & snow) Probably all of us would say yes to that. To make it happen have regular testing. Just like on a track with the fast slow medium grouping of drivers etc.
Problem is imagine the abuse of the system, it would be rampant. People who own fast expensive cars would want to be included when 75% of them can't keep speed in and out of a corner. Plus it might turn into a daily race with everyone trying to out do each other. Mmmm sweet. Make it have no lane dividers so there is passing and passing under braking - oh the joy!

Well maybe just start out with every corner has 2 or 3 lanes. At least one is for people who can corner. I love getting passed right before a turn on the highway because I wasn't going 120km/hr to be stuck behind the person who now cannot handle a turn. Anyone with no skill can take almost any car in a straight line and go 140km's and hour. That doesn't mean you know how to drive.........
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:58 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
Many objections involved improper use of some cameras and improperly or artifically low posted speed limits. For example, in several studies, the safety of many intersections improved more from better timed lights than from adding red light cameras. However, revenue increased more from short yellows + red light cameras...

Likewise, if not for groups like the National Motorist Association, we might still be driving around at 55 MPH on US highways and interstates. There has been no documented correlation to the "speed kills" trope that safety groups raised back when that speed was increased.

See below:



I see you would have scored high on the "Authoritarian" portion of the political compass.

In 2010, Oregon experienced one of the highest reductions in traffic death rates (fatalities per 100 million miles travelled). Florida, which has no inspections to speak of - at any point in ownership - experienced the lowest death rate in the state's history at 1.25 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles travelled.
Anyone been on a mountain road in a car or motorbike or mountain bike and thought - "If my tire gets a sudden flat or a bolt in the steering breaks I would die" , "did I tighten that brake line banjo too tight or too loose?"

Are there any figures relating automobile accidents to mechanical failures ? There must be some investigation that gets performed that would reveal such statistics ?

Can one assume that living in a mountainous terrain would require people to be more pro active in your maintenance of braking and steering and cooling systems vs someone living in a flat town only city driving ? Cars that plod along for years to the grocery store and back may not survive and up and down trip over a mountain pass.

So Florida has no vehicle inspections at all ever ?? Wild. If you take your car in for new tires and the installer sees a chaffed brake line or no pad material does he have the power to hold or warn the authorities about the car?

In Alberta if you don't tranfer insurance your fine but a car 10yrs old needs a new inspection when it changes insurance (ie purchase time) So you can't just buy a crappy beater for $500 and be on your way. They check everything and they are strict and you have xx number of days to rectify and now your beater is not worth fixing.

Does Florida perform random roadside truck checks? We do here and that stats are bad - brake systems defective, tires worn, steering components etc. Then again our cars go through a yearly change of 70 degrees celcius. -35 winter and +35 summer and that can be hard on components.

Last edited by Landrew; 03-07-2012 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:00 PM   #114
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Wouldn't it be even nicer if we had unlimited resources and infrastructure so we could build a 2 tiered road system. One for the regulars and one for those who can drive a bit better and handle higher speeds
Germany has it. It's called the 2-lane Autobahn and keep to the right except when passing.
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:00 PM   #115
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However, revenue increased more from short yellows + red light cameras...
That ^... We used to have 3 second yellows and up to 5 on big intersections, ever since cameras were added most of our yellows are just over 2 seconds (we had few groups confirm it with video)...at 40 mph you gotta slam on the brakes and then you risk of getting hit. Worse yet we have a lot of trucks on our roads. You slam on the brakes with a truck on your butt you're getting pushed through the light one way or another.
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:02 PM   #116
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Zealous enforcement of traffic laws and rigorous driver training. After having spent a month in the UK last August, I have realized American driving and drivers are a complete joke.

I totally support the cameras now. Bring'em on.
Strict enforcement of laws only make sense if the laws make sense. Excruciatingly low speed limits, drivers allowed to camp in the left lane, passing on the right allowed, etc... The driving laws are badly written.
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:03 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
Germany has it. It's called the 2-lane Autobahn and keep to the right except when passing.
Ya right, my Trabant yields to no one - ever........ when my premix is mixed at a 18:1 ratio look out, I'm on fire!
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:26 PM   #118
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'Speed Kills' is a joke. Driver skill, speed differences, and logical safety oriented rules are the factors. If you can't grasp these things, you shouldn't be allowed to pilot a several thousand pound steel missile because that kills. If you can, much more is possible. See autobahn.
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:07 PM   #119
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Strict enforcement of laws only make sense if the laws make sense. Excruciatingly low speed limits, drivers allowed to camp in the left lane, passing on the right allowed, etc... The driving laws are badly written.

Yes. The problem with posting a quick rant is that, well, it's quick You always leave stuff out.

Our traffic laws are a disaster. Illogical speed limits. Improperly timed lights. Poorly designed infrastructure that causes congestion just by how it's laid out or how the lights are timed.

I am not actually as pro-authoritarian as I seem to be sounding here. But I do think the government should be allowed to govern. We waste so much time and energy in the US on political bullcrap and grandstanding. We should implement a set of traffic laws that make sense, and then enforce them. Local variations from these laws should be minimized and arbitrary speed limits should not be allowed - it should be decided through the logical traffic laws. IE, a road with these characteristics gets this speed limit. Set it up, enforce it, and move on.
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Old 03-07-2012, 04:24 PM   #120
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So Florida has no vehicle inspections at all ever ?? Wild.
I will refer you to http://www.imvfilms.com/ and The Legend of the Ru.

Try searching Vimeo or YouTube for it.
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