"new" FM II in person, why I say BEGI is better - Page 5 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 01-25-2007, 02:25 PM   #81
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Ahhh....moot point. Nice work
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Old 01-25-2007, 04:22 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fmowry View Post
Since the cooling effects IC piping greatly increase performance (apparently) why doesn't BEGI use copper piping? It's readily available, more thermoconductive than SS and probably cheaper.
better thermal conductivity when it's clean... but it corrodes quickly when in a warm and occasionally wet place... so unless you want to polish your copper IC pipes regularly the SS is a much better route.
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Old 01-25-2007, 04:25 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
the only number that matters is the temperature of the air in the manifold
Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
textbooks wont give you real world data though--thats what we're all after. if you put a probe at the turbo outlet, IC inlet, and IC outlet, you'll know for sure.

if you use a metal IC inlet pipe, you might be able to run a smaller IC.

what I said was not that it reduces the outlet temp, but it reduces the efficiency of the IC. lower delta T = lower efficiency.

but then you could argue that if you're shedding heat on that pipe, why aren't you using another little IC up there? or why isn't the pipe finned or something?

My guess is it's because of the lack of airflow in the engine bay.
Good job contradicting yourself.. *******.
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Old 01-25-2007, 04:32 PM   #84
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*******? Nice.
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Old 01-25-2007, 05:01 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie Turner View Post
A metal pipe will shed over 20 degrees F. ... However, the amount of heat picked up by a metal pipe is minimal. About 2 to 4 degrees F.
Stephanie
What kind of metal?
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Old 01-25-2007, 05:16 PM   #86
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jesus people, who cares as long as the air coming out of the IC is ~ambient (which it will be regardless of pipe material)
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Old 01-25-2007, 05:43 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkmage View Post
Good job contradicting yourself.. *******.
what contradiction? one post shows the critical air temp we're concerned about. the other shows which data would be interesting to have.

not sure why that makes me an *******.

but if the sand fits your vagina...
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Old 01-25-2007, 05:45 PM   #88
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I re-read that about 4 times looking for said contradiction, myself.
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Old 01-25-2007, 06:46 PM   #89
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the contradiction was that he stated intake temp at the manifold is what's important and then continued complaining about reducing the IC efficiency, which isn't going to have an affect on intake temp at the manifold... only the delta across the IC.

At this point people are argueing just to argue.
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Old 01-25-2007, 06:53 PM   #90
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well I could care less who bashes who and whats more effecient shedding some heat en route or retaining it for the IC... but I was looking for 180degree silicon couplers today(I dont think they exist) and I found this page.
http://www.turbohoses.com/
on their faq they have some interesting statements
I like number 4, 8, and 10 but I thought 12 and 14 were particularly relevant to this thread.

Quote:
12. How much PSI can/should a silicone hose be able to handle?

Most silicone hoses (depending on reinforcement material) handle 20 to over 200 psi at non-operating temperature. However, when a hose is under operating temperature the burst rating diminishes by over 50% depending on the temperature the hose is subject to. Another factor to consider is the diameter and length of the hose. The larger the diameter, the longer the hose, the less burst resistance it will have when under heat combined with pressure.

Example: 2"ID x 3"L can have a burst rating of 20 to nearly 250psi at non-operating temperature.

4"ID x 6"L can have a burst rating of 100 psi at non-operating temperature.

Our 3 1/2"ID x 6"L and 4"ID x 6"L have been tested to exceed 65+psi at full operating temperature (250 deg f.)
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14. If I only run 10-15psi, do I really need a 600 d. resistant hose?

The average silicone hose will have a heat tolerance of less than 320 d f. At 15 psi, the air temperature out of the turbo is 300 d. Having a hose near the turbo and exhaust manifold will yield even higher external and internal temps.
I would guess that the FM pipe is around this spec, if not made by the same people, these guys seem to do a lot of custom and bulk work.
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Old 01-26-2007, 10:38 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkmage View Post
the contradiction was that he stated intake temp at the manifold is what's important and then continued complaining about reducing the IC efficiency, which isn't going to have an affect on intake temp at the manifold... only the delta across the IC.

At this point people are argueing just to argue.
OK OK I'll stop arguing to argue if you dont call me an ******* anymore.

I'm still curious though... the results of the BEGi shootout offer would be sweet to see.
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Old 01-26-2007, 02:01 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fmowry View Post
FWIW, I waited 8 months (maybe a bit of an exageration, but it was a looong time) to get my FMII kit (one of the first produced) back when I had my '90 because BEGI sucked at supplying FM.
Frank
Before you start speaking untruths, knowing the whole situation would help. Very few people know the entire truth. It is not my place to say, even though I know the entire truth.

And consider this, FM has the same supply problems now that they did when we were supplying them. I am not saying we are perfect, however.

Quote:
if you use a metal IC inlet pipe, you might be able to run a smaller IC.
Correct.

Quote:
what I said was not that it reduces the outlet temp, but it reduces the efficiency of the IC. lower delta T = lower efficiency.
This is in-correct. It will reduce the outlet temp, but it does not reduce the effectiveness of the intercooler. It reduces how hard the intercooler has to work in order to cool the air. Lower delta T is just that, less of a change in temp. Has no bearing on efficiency or effectiveness. One other change that can be done in an effort to lower temps is increase the compressor size. When a mild steel tube can make a 1 to 2 % change, intercooler a 3-4% change, downpipe a 3-4% change, coolant, etc.. All of that adds up to an increase of over 10% in effectiveness & flow. Each item by itself is nut much but combined, it is significant.

Quote:
Since the cooling effects IC piping greatly increase performance (apparently) why doesn't BEGI use copper piping? It's readily available, more thermoconductive than SS and probably cheaper.
Readily available? Maybe. Personally I would prefer that people not break in to steal our copper and / or brass. Cheaper? Not quite.

Quote:
What kind of metal?
Mild Steel. Powder coated.

Quote:
I'm still curious though... the results of the BEGi shootout offer would be sweet to see.
I agree. That is why I offered.
Stephanie

Last edited by Stephanie Turner; 01-26-2007 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 01-26-2007, 05:38 PM   #93
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Well Sid's information and Stephanie's information, as well as stephanie's willingness to be available as well as try and provide a comparison pretty much sells it for me. I've never really agree'd with FM's methods but I can pretty much lay to rest that I don't agree with their use of silcon hosing for the turbo.

Will be waiting to hear the dyno results!
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Old 01-26-2007, 05:42 PM   #94
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Who is Sid? You aren't talking about the ghost of the Sex Pistols bass player are you?
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Old 01-26-2007, 06:17 PM   #95
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For Sid see VRTSid aka, guy with weird sci-fi looking space man as avatar.
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Old 01-26-2007, 06:28 PM   #96
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Damn I was hoping you were channeling Sid Vicious or something. Now that would have been cool.
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Old 01-26-2007, 06:34 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
...dont call me an ******* anymore.
Agreed... I apologize if that offended you.
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Old 01-26-2007, 06:39 PM   #98
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*deep bow
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Old 01-26-2007, 06:44 PM   #99
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That would be cool, I mean hell channeling a dead rockstar that has a deep knowledge about silicon piping for Turbo charged cars in a miata specific application. I would be impressed with myself.
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Old 01-26-2007, 08:22 PM   #100
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FWIW these guys seem to like silicon piping on 700hp twin turbo Z06's...

http://www.airpowersystems.com.au/corvette/c6.htm

looks just like the FM stuff to me
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