Peter Pan Coolant Reroute
12-12-2008, 12:28 AM
#63
You do realize that said protege motor with freeze plug in front of cylinder head has a rear mounted thermostat in the head. And that there is no freeze plug in the rear of the head such that hot water can flow out of the head, through the thermostat, and proceed to the radiator. So why exactly would you block a water passage that would stop water from circulating through the head/engine? I mean, WHY? Seriously. Please explain. Don't blow this off as someone hating. EXPLAIN YOURSELF!
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12-12-2008, 12:32 AM
#64
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I have no interest in technical debate with you. The rest of this forum has attempted that with no effect, and I have no interest in wasting my time with you. My only interest is removing you from this forum so that you cannot interfere with the in-depth, technical discussions that make this place so great.
In less words: Take your idiotic ideas and your close-minded mentality and get the **** out.
In less words: Take your idiotic ideas and your close-minded mentality and get the **** out.
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12-12-2008, 12:38 AM
#65
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Thoughts, followed by a techinical question:
You do realize that said protege motor with freeze plug in front of cylinder head has a rear mounted thermostat in the head. And that there is no freeze plug in the rear of the head such that hot water can flow out of the head, through the thermostat, and proceed to the radiator. So why exactly would you block a water passage that would stop water from circulating through the head/engine? I mean, WHY? Seriously. Please explain. Don't blow this off as someone hating. EXPLAIN YOURSELF!
You do realize that said protege motor with freeze plug in front of cylinder head has a rear mounted thermostat in the head. And that there is no freeze plug in the rear of the head such that hot water can flow out of the head, through the thermostat, and proceed to the radiator. So why exactly would you block a water passage that would stop water from circulating through the head/engine? I mean, WHY? Seriously. Please explain. Don't blow this off as someone hating. EXPLAIN YOURSELF!
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12-12-2008, 12:40 AM
#66
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I have no interest in technical debate with you. The rest of this forum has attempted that with no effect, and I have no interest in wasting my time with you. My only interest is removing you from this forum so that you cannot interfere with the in-depth, technical discussions that make this place so great.
In less words: Take your idiotic ideas and your close-minded mentality and get the **** out.
In less words: Take your idiotic ideas and your close-minded mentality and get the **** out.
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12-12-2008, 12:52 AM
#68
I actually am figuring somthing out, and I am actually learning pro's and cons from this post. I'm just to drunk to think well right now.
Does anyone have the schematic for one of the front wheel drives?
Hustler, do you have one from the begi kit?
I think we can come up with something. I know the begi should be best. He wrote the book on miata turbo's.
I like to learn the pro's and cons of everything.
Steph or Corkey, care to chime in, in the morning???????
Time for more wine............
Dodge, Duck, Dive, Dodge! : Patches O'Halahan
Does anyone have the schematic for one of the front wheel drives?
Hustler, do you have one from the begi kit?
I think we can come up with something. I know the begi should be best. He wrote the book on miata turbo's.
I like to learn the pro's and cons of everything.
Steph or Corkey, care to chime in, in the morning???????
Time for more wine............
Dodge, Duck, Dive, Dodge! : Patches O'Halahan
Last edited by Toddcod; 12-12-2008 at 08:23 AM.
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12-12-2008, 01:11 AM
#72
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I actually am figuring somthing out, and I am actually learning pro's and cons from this post. I'm just to drunk to think well right now.
Does anyone have the schematic for one of the front wheel drives?
Hustler, do you have one from the begi kit?
I think we can come up with something. I know the begi should be best. He wrote the book on miata turbo's.
I like to learn the pro's and cons of everything.
Steph or Corkey, care to chime in, in the morning???????
Time for more wine............
Dodge, Duck, Dive, Dodge! : Patches O'Halahan
Does anyone have the schematic for one of the front wheel drives?
Hustler, do you have one from the begi kit?
I think we can come up with something. I know the begi should be best. He wrote the book on miata turbo's.
I like to learn the pro's and cons of everything.
Steph or Corkey, care to chime in, in the morning???????
Time for more wine............
Dodge, Duck, Dive, Dodge! : Patches O'Halahan
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12-12-2008, 01:33 AM
#73
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Amazingly enough, most of us are not logged into the forum every hour of the day. Sorry for having made you wait, but I was out having dinner with some friends.
So, here's what puzzles me. You came in here poo-pooing one widely accepted method of cooling the Miata engine, and claiming that you had something better. I'm OK with that, because I can accept that there's always a better way of doing things which hasn't been discovered yet.
You then posted a couple of pictures of your system, along with a relatively incoherant description of an alternate solution. Based upon this, several people carefully considered what you were proposing, identified what they believe to be flaws both in your design and in your basic comprehension of fluid dynamics (ie: water flowing from areas of low pressure to areas of high pressure, or water circulating within a closed system in the absense of any pressure differential) and explained these observations in very clear language.
By way of response, you chose not to directly address these concerns, but instead implied that all of those people were idiots who don't understand how an engine works, blamed your lack of clarity and detail on the fact that you appear to be accessing the internet though a videogame console, and closed by saying "the reroute concept is not fully disclosed."
So, either fully disclose it and explain why all of the various things you've claimed are false are in fact false, or go back to playing Guitar Hero and leave the engineering to the grown ups.
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12-12-2008, 01:52 AM
#74
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hey hyper - so did your magic colant reroute reduce the temps shown on the gauge ? forget the theory did it do something in the real world
personally I think Hyper is a troll looking for confrontation
personally I think Hyper is a troll looking for confrontation
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12-12-2008, 01:57 AM
#75
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Here we are:
Note that it's virtually identical to how a traditional rear-thermostat Miata reroute works. The blue feed on the back of the head (flywheel side) is hot coolant going out to the oil cooler & heater core (red line) and to the throttle body and idle air bypass thingy (green line). These both return to the mixing manifold via the yellow line, which is in the same location as it is on our cars. They go straight back into the engine without hitting the radiator, and thus provide the bypass circulation function when the thermostat is closed.
The big difference relative to the RWD config is that there's no outlet on the front (pulley side). The thermostat (not colored) is in the back (flywheel side), so in order to get out through the thermostat, the water has to pass through the whole engine first.
Note that the heater core and the oil cooler are in series. We all know that the lines on the oil cooler are relative small, thus my suggestion (in the M-tuned thread) about placing a restriction between the rear outlet and the heater core (to bias coolant toward the thermostat, when open) is functionally equivilant to the restrictionof the oil cooler in the original 323 design. The reason the feed to the heater is unrestricted in the stock Miata configuration is that it is the primary escape route for coolant flowing through the motor and out the back, regardless of thermostat position. Restrict this, and you overheat the engine.
Note that it's virtually identical to how a traditional rear-thermostat Miata reroute works. The blue feed on the back of the head (flywheel side) is hot coolant going out to the oil cooler & heater core (red line) and to the throttle body and idle air bypass thingy (green line). These both return to the mixing manifold via the yellow line, which is in the same location as it is on our cars. They go straight back into the engine without hitting the radiator, and thus provide the bypass circulation function when the thermostat is closed.
The big difference relative to the RWD config is that there's no outlet on the front (pulley side). The thermostat (not colored) is in the back (flywheel side), so in order to get out through the thermostat, the water has to pass through the whole engine first.
Note that the heater core and the oil cooler are in series. We all know that the lines on the oil cooler are relative small, thus my suggestion (in the M-tuned thread) about placing a restriction between the rear outlet and the heater core (to bias coolant toward the thermostat, when open) is functionally equivilant to the restrictionof the oil cooler in the original 323 design. The reason the feed to the heater is unrestricted in the stock Miata configuration is that it is the primary escape route for coolant flowing through the motor and out the back, regardless of thermostat position. Restrict this, and you overheat the engine.
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12-12-2008, 02:17 AM
#76
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First off, lose the attitude. All the folks who are saying "Ban him" and otherwise being rude are correct insofar as that we're being amazingly lenient (relative to our normal standards) by not having banned you already on the grounds that you're really starting to act like a tool, which violates one of only two rules that we actually enforce around here. (The other is no **** in avatars, or in threads w/o a NWS title.) MT.net runs on a policy of strict Darwinism, and right now you're not making a good case for survival. But for some reason I am in a really benevolent mood today, and somewhat curious to see if there is some kernel of logic buried deep behind what you're trying to say.
Amazingly enough, most of us are not logged into the forum every hour of the day. Sorry for having made you wait, but I was out having dinner with some friends.
So, here's what puzzles me. You came in here poo-pooing one widely accepted method of cooling the Miata engine, and claiming that you had something better. I'm OK with that, because I can accept that there's always a better way of doing things which hasn't been discovered yet.
You then posted a couple of pictures of your system, along with a relatively incoherant description of an alternate solution. Based upon this, several people carefully considered what you were proposing, identified what they believe to be flaws both in your design and in your basic comprehension of fluid dynamics (ie: water flowing from areas of low pressure to areas of high pressure, or water circulating within a closed system in the absense of any pressure differential) and explained these observations in very clear language.
By way of response, you chose not to directly address these concerns, but instead implied that all of those people were idiots who don't understand how an engine works, blamed your lack of clarity and detail on the fact that you appear to be accessing the internet though a videogame console, and closed by saying "the reroute concept is not fully disclosed."
So, either fully disclose it and explain why all of the various things you've claimed are false are in fact false, or go back to playing Guitar Hero and leave the engineering to the grown ups.
Amazingly enough, most of us are not logged into the forum every hour of the day. Sorry for having made you wait, but I was out having dinner with some friends.
So, here's what puzzles me. You came in here poo-pooing one widely accepted method of cooling the Miata engine, and claiming that you had something better. I'm OK with that, because I can accept that there's always a better way of doing things which hasn't been discovered yet.
You then posted a couple of pictures of your system, along with a relatively incoherant description of an alternate solution. Based upon this, several people carefully considered what you were proposing, identified what they believe to be flaws both in your design and in your basic comprehension of fluid dynamics (ie: water flowing from areas of low pressure to areas of high pressure, or water circulating within a closed system in the absense of any pressure differential) and explained these observations in very clear language.
By way of response, you chose not to directly address these concerns, but instead implied that all of those people were idiots who don't understand how an engine works, blamed your lack of clarity and detail on the fact that you appear to be accessing the internet though a videogame console, and closed by saying "the reroute concept is not fully disclosed."
So, either fully disclose it and explain why all of the various things you've claimed are false are in fact false, or go back to playing Guitar Hero and leave the engineering to the grown ups.
with that said, the pics posted by me is only a prototype, it has not been tested in any car although the fabrication is already done. what you all saw was the coolant reroute part, the rest of the components of my cooling system includes the following
PWR Twin cooler set up
AWR Fan and shroud kit
custom made braided oil coolant lines
mocal sandwich adaptor
stock factory oil cooler will be removed
you don't really need to see pics of the remaining cooling system components but i will post pics tomorrow and give my fair point of view . good night.
Last edited by Hyper with ADD; 12-12-2008 at 02:53 AM.
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12-12-2008, 02:31 AM
#77
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It's not hard to figure that out. Everyone except you is knowledgeable, including the drunk guy. Don't think for a second that you can try to pass off your shitty idea and your stubborn attitude as "prototyping" and "playing your cards dirty". You **** your bed, and now you'll ******* sleep in it.
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12-12-2008, 02:40 AM
#78
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Originally Posted by Hyper
you don't really need to see pics of this item but i post pics regardless and at the same explain and a raise a coherent unheard as of today.
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12-12-2008, 03:25 AM
#79
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The rest of your cooling system, ...wtf? WE DON'T CARE about your OIL coolers. Jesus.
Or how about that, we don't care about your beefy radiator, special shroud, or fans.
These are not special trade secrets. I'm sorry if you thought you were special. I really am. Most people here, have not given you the time of day because we know better. Not because we fail some stupid "I had to test people" lame description of your re-route are you knowledgeable or not bullshit.
People have presented you with clear problems with your re-route. That have nothing to do with the cooling efficiencies of your radiator. Which would be the only reason to consider getting a bigger radiator and fans. Yet you, as response do no address these problems and just say "well, it hasn't actually been running on a car yet, but these radiator parts will surely finish the job".
You are so wrong, stop trying to say you are right. Yes, you have corrected some issues that exist in the cooling system. Primarily by your count, turbo getting fresh coolant. Though...this we all (cept you of couse) knew wasn't the case, you were in fact doing the opposite. Though, thank god because that's the only circulation your engine would be getting with the thermostat closed. (again, just to remind you. fans and a radiator or a oil cooler will not fix this). Because you fixed the other "problem" which is mixing coolant hot with cold before it enters the block.
Then, despite all your yelling and shouting that pulling the coolant from the back of the head is wrong, you essentially admit that you plan to put a freeze plug in the front of the head, and :GASP: Leave the thermostat there!! *Dun dun dunnnnnnn* Oh, wait. That just means you are doing the re-route similar to others but you aren't moving the thermostat to the back of the head. That might be alright...I guess. It's not ideal, and as I've said before, you could have just done the re-route as its been many times discussed for the same money.
I still have problems with this re-route. Namely that it doesn't fix the closed thermostat engine operation that was mentioned, and secondly, the heater return lines are rather a bit smaller than say, the return from the front of the head. So the flow won't quite be what it was, and your radiator which now is new and improved, is actually doing less work at cooling than stock.
If you need, I'm sure someone else would love to break it down for you. Again....ok...maybe they won't be. But I won't be around, I've got 2 finals tomorrow. I'm an art major...huh go figure, not an engineer but still knows what the **** is going on.
Or how about that, we don't care about your beefy radiator, special shroud, or fans.
These are not special trade secrets. I'm sorry if you thought you were special. I really am. Most people here, have not given you the time of day because we know better. Not because we fail some stupid "I had to test people" lame description of your re-route are you knowledgeable or not bullshit.
People have presented you with clear problems with your re-route. That have nothing to do with the cooling efficiencies of your radiator. Which would be the only reason to consider getting a bigger radiator and fans. Yet you, as response do no address these problems and just say "well, it hasn't actually been running on a car yet, but these radiator parts will surely finish the job".
You are so wrong, stop trying to say you are right. Yes, you have corrected some issues that exist in the cooling system. Primarily by your count, turbo getting fresh coolant. Though...this we all (cept you of couse) knew wasn't the case, you were in fact doing the opposite. Though, thank god because that's the only circulation your engine would be getting with the thermostat closed. (again, just to remind you. fans and a radiator or a oil cooler will not fix this). Because you fixed the other "problem" which is mixing coolant hot with cold before it enters the block.
Then, despite all your yelling and shouting that pulling the coolant from the back of the head is wrong, you essentially admit that you plan to put a freeze plug in the front of the head, and :GASP: Leave the thermostat there!! *Dun dun dunnnnnnn* Oh, wait. That just means you are doing the re-route similar to others but you aren't moving the thermostat to the back of the head. That might be alright...I guess. It's not ideal, and as I've said before, you could have just done the re-route as its been many times discussed for the same money.
I still have problems with this re-route. Namely that it doesn't fix the closed thermostat engine operation that was mentioned, and secondly, the heater return lines are rather a bit smaller than say, the return from the front of the head. So the flow won't quite be what it was, and your radiator which now is new and improved, is actually doing less work at cooling than stock.
If you need, I'm sure someone else would love to break it down for you. Again....ok...maybe they won't be. But I won't be around, I've got 2 finals tomorrow. I'm an art major...huh go figure, not an engineer but still knows what the **** is going on.
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12-12-2008, 08:10 AM
#80
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The rest of your cooling system, ...wtf? WE DON'T CARE about your OIL coolers. Jesus.
Or how about that, we don't care about your beefy radiator, special shroud, or fans.
These are not special trade secrets. I'm sorry if you thought you were special. I really am. Most people here, have not given you the time of day because we know better. Not because we fail some stupid "I had to test people" lame description of your re-route are you knowledgeable or not bullshit.
People have presented you with clear problems with your re-route. That have nothing to do with the cooling efficiencies of your radiator. Which would be the only reason to consider getting a bigger radiator and fans. Yet you, as response do no address these problems and just say "well, it hasn't actually been running on a car yet, but these radiator parts will surely finish the job".
You are so wrong, stop trying to say you are right. Yes, you have corrected some issues that exist in the cooling system. Primarily by your count, turbo getting fresh coolant. Though...this we all (cept you of couse) knew wasn't the case, you were in fact doing the opposite. Though, thank god because that's the only circulation your engine would be getting with the thermostat closed. (again, just to remind you. fans and a radiator or a oil cooler will not fix this). Because you fixed the other "problem" which is mixing coolant hot with cold before it enters the block.
Then, despite all your yelling and shouting that pulling the coolant from the back of the head is wrong, you essentially admit that you plan to put a freeze plug in the front of the head, and :GASP: Leave the thermostat there!! *Dun dun dunnnnnnn* Oh, wait. That just means you are doing the re-route similar to others but you aren't moving the thermostat to the back of the head. That might be alright...I guess. It's not ideal, and as I've said before, you could have just done the re-route as its been many times discussed for the same money.
I still have problems with this re-route. Namely that it doesn't fix the closed thermostat engine operation that was mentioned, and secondly, the heater return lines are rather a bit smaller than say, the return from the front of the head. So the flow won't quite be what it was, and your radiator which now is new and improved, is actually doing less work at cooling than stock.
If you need, I'm sure someone else would love to break it down for you. Again....ok...maybe they won't be. But I won't be around, I've got 2 finals tomorrow. I'm an art major...huh go figure, not an engineer but still knows what the **** is going on.
Or how about that, we don't care about your beefy radiator, special shroud, or fans.
These are not special trade secrets. I'm sorry if you thought you were special. I really am. Most people here, have not given you the time of day because we know better. Not because we fail some stupid "I had to test people" lame description of your re-route are you knowledgeable or not bullshit.
People have presented you with clear problems with your re-route. That have nothing to do with the cooling efficiencies of your radiator. Which would be the only reason to consider getting a bigger radiator and fans. Yet you, as response do no address these problems and just say "well, it hasn't actually been running on a car yet, but these radiator parts will surely finish the job".
You are so wrong, stop trying to say you are right. Yes, you have corrected some issues that exist in the cooling system. Primarily by your count, turbo getting fresh coolant. Though...this we all (cept you of couse) knew wasn't the case, you were in fact doing the opposite. Though, thank god because that's the only circulation your engine would be getting with the thermostat closed. (again, just to remind you. fans and a radiator or a oil cooler will not fix this). Because you fixed the other "problem" which is mixing coolant hot with cold before it enters the block.
Then, despite all your yelling and shouting that pulling the coolant from the back of the head is wrong, you essentially admit that you plan to put a freeze plug in the front of the head, and :GASP: Leave the thermostat there!! *Dun dun dunnnnnnn* Oh, wait. That just means you are doing the re-route similar to others but you aren't moving the thermostat to the back of the head. That might be alright...I guess. It's not ideal, and as I've said before, you could have just done the re-route as its been many times discussed for the same money.
I still have problems with this re-route. Namely that it doesn't fix the closed thermostat engine operation that was mentioned, and secondly, the heater return lines are rather a bit smaller than say, the return from the front of the head. So the flow won't quite be what it was, and your radiator which now is new and improved, is actually doing less work at cooling than stock.
If you need, I'm sure someone else would love to break it down for you. Again....ok...maybe they won't be. But I won't be around, I've got 2 finals tomorrow. I'm an art major...huh go figure, not an engineer but still knows what the **** is going on.
wait a second. before i even discuss with you on your teory of bigger fans, bigger and radiator and oil cooler, explain to the entire miata community if it makes any sense to adquire any of these cooling items. your comments just pissed a lot people by the way. please elaborate or give more details
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