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Old 12-12-2008, 02:49 PM   #121
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Let me reprhase it.
But for racing on a hot day, and reroute begi style, and use the colder coolant to the turbo you are talking about like the mazda speed. You should be better for the track.

Not perfect, but better.

If you could souce straight cold water. That definately would be better.

Keep in mind. I'm leaving my car the way it is. I'm not playing god. I just want it to run like a rapped ape. If the heater won't work. I'll fix the heater, or sell it!
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:11 PM   #122
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This has been a good read. I learned, I laughed, I cried... Ive been wondering the entire time, why feed the turbo from the hotter coolant before it goes into the rad. and not from the cooler source, like brought up above. The 323's setup to me looks like it would be a large improvement for turbo cooling. I dont really see what Hyper's deisgn improves over other reroute methods. Im also in shock he is still here, anybody else would have been gone long ago. Continue, Im just watching from the sidelines.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:30 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by NA6C-Guy View Post
I dont really see what Hyper's deisgn improves over other reroute methods.

It dramatically improves the potential of overheating and destruction.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:39 PM   #124
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Well yes, besides that... has no one ever adopted a similar routing to the 323 to a turbo Miata? Using that spot on the block that was posted earlier, wouldnt it be a pretty easy thing?
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:42 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by NA6C-Guy View Post
Well yes, besides that... has no one ever adopted a similar routing to the 323 to a turbo Miata? Using that spot on the block that was posted earlier, wouldnt it be a pretty easy thing?
Soon as I get to my motor im looking for that port. If it's there thats what im using for the turbo.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:54 PM   #126
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Yeah i was wanting to know if it was a sure thing that it was usable, so I could go ahead and drill, tap and plug it while I had the block apart, so when I do get the turbo and install it, its ready to go.
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Old 12-12-2008, 04:00 PM   #127
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Your block should have it, it's just next to the oil port. It's where they source the coolant from the factory on the 323s, you can see this in my diagram i posted.

I'll be by my spare block tomorrow, maybe I'll pull the plug and see if I can measure the threads for you guys.
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Old 12-12-2008, 04:09 PM   #128
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I think that the valid points from this thread and this thread:
https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t28985/

Be consolodated into on stickied thread for Coolant Reroutes. Obviously deleting all of the assinine as illogically stupid comments that have been spewed.
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:25 PM   #129
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I wanted to say to everybody in this forum that gave a fair point of view and opinion in this topic a big thank you. Cya everybody.
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:56 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
I wanted to say to everybody in this forum that gave a fair point of view and opinion in this topic a big thank you. Cya everybody.
Is it hard being a failure? Like is life tough for you?

Or are you that dense you have no clue and life is perfect...example: cars around you always seem to run off the road and you never get into any accidents, but in reality you're not yielding to traffic and they are swerving from getting hit by you???
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Old 12-13-2008, 12:52 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Your block should have it, it's just next to the oil port. It's where they source the coolant from the factory on the 323s, you can see this in my diagram i posted.

I'll be by my spare block tomorrow, maybe I'll pull the plug and see if I can measure the threads for you guys.
The water fitting is M12 x 1.25, according to Frank Devocht's writeup on the subject. His re-route is essentially the standard rear-thermostat job as well. Funny how in all of recorded history, there dosen't seem to be anybody else who has come to the same conclusion as Hyper on this subject...

If you look at the 323 diagram I posted in msg #75, you can see (barely) how the turbo feeds from this location and then drains to a fitting on the rigid pipe which goes to the mixing manifold. It would be satisfactorily equivalent to put a tee into the rubber hose which runs from the bottom of the thermostat housing to the top of the mixing manifold, and return the turbo's coolant there.

Here's a much clearer view of the 323 GTX system than the one I posted before:


I'm really surprised that nobody has mentioned the extremely obvious, however. The best place, with the coldest coolant at the highest pressure, is the front thermostat outlet. If you choose to block it with a plate, then threading a fitting in here is a no-brainer. Even if you use a freeze plug, I'd wager that with a steel fitting and a steady hand you could thread the plug and then tack-weld the fitting into place.


Here's a really interesting set of data, where the author installed a rear-thermostat reroute but also left the front thermostat in place, and installed a valve that allowed him to select between the two in order to compare them.: http://users.telenet.be/miata/englis...nt_reroute.htm Obviously, the rear thermostat setup produced the smallest temperature delta across the engine, and thus the most even temperature distribution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NA6C-Guy
I dont really see what Hyper's deisgn improves over other reroute methods. Im also in shock he is still here, anybody else would have been gone long ago.
I have to admit, I'm actually starting to find him amusing. He makes me think of what Hustler would be like if he suffered a severe head injury.

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Old 12-13-2008, 01:27 AM   #132
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Whats up with the one in the picture posted in the last page? Is the fitting broken off in the hole? Is it an already threaded and plugged hole, or is it just a flat casting area that needs to be drilled and tapped? I havent looked very close at that area on my block (94). Would be nice if it were already ready to go and just needed a fitting. If not, I think I already have that size drill and tap from a previous project, so not a big deal either way. Thanks for the info fellas.
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Old 12-13-2008, 10:19 AM   #133
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failure is not a word for individuals that take NO for an answer.

Hold-on on your comments... Hyper is coming back

Last edited by Hyper with ADD; 12-13-2008 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 12-13-2008, 12:27 PM   #134
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More preparation, more humility.
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Old 12-13-2008, 02:56 PM   #135
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Here are the pictures of the coolant feed for the turbo on MSMs:

Block port:
Name:  DSC01732.jpg
Views: 9
Size:  77.6 KB

And the pipe that travels the length of the exhaust manifold:
Name:  DSC01731.jpg
Views: 9
Size:  51.8 KB
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Old 12-13-2008, 04:13 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NA6C-Guy View Post
Whats up with the one in the picture posted in the last page? Is the fitting broken off in the hole? Is it an already threaded and plugged hole, or is it just a flat casting area that needs to be drilled and tapped? I havent looked very close at that area on my block (94). Would be nice if it were already ready to go and just needed a fitting. If not, I think I already have that size drill and tap from a previous project, so not a big deal either way. Thanks for the info fellas.
NB's don't have that hole. Here's a pic of an NB. Red dot is water feed and blue dot is oil feed on the older engines. I slightly pressurised the water system and drilled the red dot for water, not for oil (too dangerous).


Click to enlarge.
.


Joe, the 2nd pic you posted is from a 1.6 323. It is different to that of the 1.8 323 you posted earlier (the colored one).
On the 1.6, the water feed for the oil cooler / heater comes from a port in the intake. On the 1.8, it comes from the back of the head (double fitting where the miata has a single fitting).

Last edited by WestfieldMX5; 12-13-2008 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 12-13-2008, 05:31 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f_devocht View Post
NB's don't have that hole. Here's a pic of an NB. Red dot is water feed and blue dot is oil feed on the older engines. I slightly pressurised the water system and drilled the red dot for water.
I've always been curious as to whether anybody had actually done that! Bravo, good sir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by f_devocht
Joe, the 2nd pic you posted is from a 1.6 323. It is different to that of the 1.8 323 you posted earlier (the colored one).
On the 1.6, the water feed for the oil cooler / heater comes from a port in the intake. On the 1.8, it comes from the back of the head (double fitting where the miata has a single fitting).
Correct. Much like the 1.6 vs 1.8 Miata, the two are functionally identical in terms of the location of the major components, the directions of flow, and so on, so I don't really consider it problematic to treat them as one. Granted, I consider the latter to be *slightly* superior, as the back-of-head takeoff for the heater will encourage greater circulation throughout the entire engine when cold.

The location and orientation of the major components (thermostat and outlet, mixing manifold, etc) is identical between them two generations, insofar as I'm aware.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
failure is not a word for individuals that take NO for an answer.
Did you, by any chance, bother to read what you just wrote there?
Quote:
Hold-on on your comments... Hyper is coming back
(insert music from Jeopardy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NA6C-Guy View Post
Whats up with the one in the picture posted in the last page? Is the fitting broken off in the hole?
On the early blocks, that port is pre-drilled and tapped for M12x1.25. The picture in question was in fact of a fitting broken off inside the hole. My suspicion is that it was one of those "This is how not to do it" posts. ANd for some reason that image seems to have disappeared...
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Old 12-13-2008, 07:06 PM   #138
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answer to joe perez

yes and will appreciate very much you remove my avatar thanks

Last edited by Hyper with ADD; 12-13-2008 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 12-13-2008, 10:52 PM   #139
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Wow.

I got back to my hotel this evening and logged in to find that you had written quite a lengthy post which, despite your usual disregard for spelling, grammar, syntax, punctuation, capitalization, and sentence structure in general, was remarkably coherent and obviously very carefully considered.

While I was reading it, you edited it. Then you edited it again. And then again. And again. I finally gave up and went out to grab some dinner and a few drinks. By the time I returned, you’d edited the damn thing a total of sixteen times over the course of an hour and a half, removing nearly every word of your original opus and reducing it to one irrelevant sentence.

For those who are interested, here is what Hyper originally wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper
answer to joe perez

yes and will appreciate very much you remove my avatar. i have been working all day doing some revisions to my reroute. the major changes involve relocating thermostat to the back of the cylinder head and maybe tapping and threating the fitting used on the cylinder for the factory oil cooler of which i will no longer be using. most likely will install a hose there to the inlet heater core pipe. i also ordered a jr spacer to brainstorm some ideas when i reroute the hot coolant to the radiator. the hot coolant line that was connected to the turbo is blocked and sealed with a freeze plug. my built block is the as the 1.6 323 turbo block, i will cooling the turbo using this concept.

if you don't mind and you still feel amused of my persevance and will power please create a chart with the following revisions. i trying to think outside the box to come through using incoherent independent thinking related to this matter, thanks

1. jr spacer in the back of the cylinder head with thermostat
2. factory fitting used for factory oil cooler will be removed and tapped. undecided as to what to do here. most likely heater core will connect here or hot coolant will be rerouted to the radiator.
3. hot coolant that was feeding the turbo in factory miata thermostat housing is now blocked with a freeze plug, turbo will routed just as the mazdaspeed.
4. front thermostat housing no longer has a thermotat, it is now open for free coolant flow.
5. depending on the size jr spacer, i am planning to hook up a spacer to the front thermostat housing with 1 or 2 ports to connect hot coolant braided linesfrom the back of the cylinder head at this location


i want to use a method that is simple and that break pretty much the present reroute concepts. my reroute will bypass the mixing pipe as you all saw in the pics and reroute plenty of hot coolant from the back the cylinder head to the radiator. about the only thin g that has me holding is the jr spacer. i need to know how big is that spacer to come up with some ideas i have in mind. just fyi, i will be using big custom braided lines instead of pipes and hoses to reroute the hot coolant from the back of the cylinder head. they r very flexible and bulletproof . .


if any of you of care about my comments please post and updated chart with the revisions. it was very when this topic started and will help me choose the best and path i need to endeavor to reach what i have in mind.


so hold-on kids, hyper is coming back .....


Now, since you’re actually showing some initiative here (despite chickening out and nuking the whole thing at the last minute) I’m going to be completely serious and straightforward, and give you an honest and sincere response, sharing insights about what you’re proposing instead of taking the easy out and just calling you an asshat.




Quote:
yes and will appreciate very much you remove my avatar.
And I would appreciate very much a three-way with Tricia Helfer and Grace Park.


Quote:
i have been working all day doing some revisions to my reroute. the major changes involve relocating thermostat to the back of the cylinder head (…)
Now this actually fills me with hope. It suggests that behind that immature fašade, you’re actually reading and comprehending what people are telling you, thinking critically about it, and perhaps learning something. This is really what we’re all about.


Quote:
(…) and maybe tapping and threating the fitting used on the cylinder for the factory oil cooler of which i will no longer be using.
I would not remove the factory oil cooler if I were you. In addition to the more obvious function (cooling the oil) it also serves to pre-heat the oil when it is cold. During warmup, the coolant comes up to normal temperature much more quickly than the oil does. By transferring heat from the coolant to the oil during this time, the oil will reach its optimum working viscosity sooner, reducing engine wear and increasing power. Believe it or not, having your oil too cold is actually a bad thing. Cold, thick oil has a much higher coefficient of friction than warm oil (it’s a poorer lubricant) and is much more susceptible to shear than warm oil as well. This is important not just for the life of your rings & bearings, but your cam / lifters and turbo as well.


Quote:
most likely will install a hose there to the inlet heater core pipe.
Not bad. However since the heater core contributes greatly to coolant circulation through the engine when cold, I’d strongly suggest that you take the heater feed from a location that will promote thorough coolant flow- namely the back of the head, pre-thermostat. You can still use a restrictor in the line to decrease the volume of coolant flowing through the heater core, which will minimize the amount of warm coolant flowing bypassing the radiator and flowing back into the inlet when the thermostat is open.



Quote:
if you don't mind and you still feel amused of my persevance and will power please create a chart with the following revisions.
Sorry, I’m not the one who draws the fancy diagrams. Use a pencil. Or Mario Paint, if you have that. (I don’t know of any good illustrating programs for the PS3. Kinda old-school that way, sorry.)


Quote:
1. jr spacer in the back of the cylinder head with thermostat
An excellent approach, and one that served as the basis for many of the current reroute designs. You will need to acquire the services of a lathe to turn a shallow recess into one end of the opening so that the thermostat will fit within it. The drilling and tapping of the fittings on the side can easily be done with simple hand tools.


Quote:
2. factory fitting used for factory oil cooler will be removed and tapped. undecided as to what to do here. most likely heater core will connect here or hot coolant will be rerouted to the radiator.
Again, I advise against removing the factory oil cooler, and also against feeding the heater from any location other than the back of the head, for the reasons outlined above.



Quote:
3. hot coolant that was feeding the turbo in factory miata thermostat housing is now blocked with a freeze plug, turbo will routed just as the mazdaspeed.
A good compromise position. The coolest coolant in a rear-thermostat configuration is to be had at the (now blocked) front thermostat outlet, however feeding the turbo from this point eliminates its effectiveness as a thermostat bypass mechanism for the purpose of promoting circulation when the engine is cold. In the stock 323 location, it will receive relatively cool coolant, and yet still promote circulation, at least through the lower portion of the engine, when cold.


Quote:
4. front thermostat housing no longer has a thermotat, it is now open for free coolant flow.
5. depending on the size jr spacer, i am planning to hook up a spacer to the front thermostat housing with 1 or 2 ports to connect hot coolant braided linesfrom the back of the cylinder head at this location
Removing the front thermostat, but leaving the housing in place and connecting it to anything is a horrible idea. If this housing is open and devoid of a thermostat, and provided with a low-restriction path towards the radiator (if said hoses are connected to the rear housing post-thermostat) then most of the coolant coming out of the pump will flow right out the front of the block without ever circulating through the engine. Remember, the objective here isn’t to keep the coolant cool, it’s to keep the engine cool. Letting coolant escape out the front of the engine is the wrong way to achieve this- you need to force every bit of coolant that the water pump pushes out to flow al the way through the block and head to the back of the engine. Remember- to make the engine cool, the coolant is going to become hot in the process. That’s the whole point of it being there.

On the other hand, if said hoses are connected to the back pre-thermostat, then they will accomplish nothing. Remember, coolant won't flow through a hose unless the pressure on one end is different from the pressure at the other. And again, we don't actually want any coolant entering or leaving through the front thermostat hole- that's the flaw in the design that we're trying to fix, remember?

Block the front thermostat opening. You can drive a freeze plug into the hole or you can bolt a flat plate across it, but you need to prevent coolant from escaping through this avenue- this is the primary point of doing a reroute in the first place.


Quote:
i want to use a method that is simple and that break pretty much the present reroute concepts. my reroute will bypass the mixing pipe as you all saw in the pics and reroute plenty of hot coolant from the back the cylinder head to the radiator.
I have to ask this, and please give me an honest answer. Are you trying to come up with the best possible cooling solution for your engine, or are you only interested in doing things differently from everyone else, regardless of whether this is better or worse for your car?


Quote:
about the only thin g that has me holding is the jr spacer. i need to know how big is that spacer to come up with some ideas i have in mind.
It’s about an inch thick, give or take.


Quote:
it was very when this topic started and will help me choose the best and path i need to endeavor to reach what i have in mind.
Are you the guy who is writing those letters claiming to be the relative of a deposed Nigerian government official and asking for my bank information?



As a general note, consider that someday you will be finished with school (yes, I know it seems that day will never come but it does) and presumably looking for gainful employment. While not everyone is expected to be Shakespeare, the manner in which you speak and write will have a tremendous bearing upon your success in the business world. It doesn’t matter if you’re applying to the PhD program at Oxford, an apprenticeship with the Pipefitter’s Union, or some office job downtown. Those who communicate clearly and properly will find that they are, without exception, taken more seriously and treated in a more respectful manner than those who write and speak as though they ambled in off the street.
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Old 12-13-2008, 11:17 PM   #140
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The Mario Paint comment got me, almost spilled my drink. Thanks alot!

So Hyper was listening after all, maybe.
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