AbeFM

iTrader: (3)

Isreal isn't fighting over land? Um, hello? That's like saying someone trying to cut out your heart in a knife fight, you just "want to win" and it's not about your heart anymore. the Jews aren't waiting for any "savior", "end of days" or anything else. They just want to continue to live in their own country without getting shot and blown up on a daily basis.

ray_sir_6

iTrader: (1)

The war was a cakewalk. The occupation has turned into a "worse case scenario". Gotta love that region.

We have already asked for their help. So hopefully that will show in the near future. I am sure having fellow Muslims occupying will make it a tad bit less violent, or get more killed cause they aren't the same sect!

The murder rate in Iraq is similar to the rate in the US if you take population into comparision. They are nowhere near a civil war (unless you only go off what is on the news). Most of the country is deep into rebuilding. I was there for 8 months (May 03-Dec 03), stationed in NE Baghdad. The news makes it seem like a war zone, made my mom scared as hell when I was there. The whole time I was there, my unit (2d ACR) had ONE IED attack, no casualties. The death rate in the Army has actually gone DOWN since invading Iraq, cause there are less suicides now. So I don't see them as expendable, but better them dying over there fighting for our country than hanging themselves back in the barracks.

JasonC SBB

Oh? And explain how the media's "top tier" aren't just empty sloganeers. I think you know nothing about Ron Paul other than what the "media pundits" want you to know.

JasonC SBB

So you equate not "supporting gay marriage" with exterminating the jews?

em99sport

iTrader: (2)

Unlike most others in our country, I don't rely on the news for my take on things. Rebuilding is clearly a term used loosely here, as I have seen firsthand what complete disarray that country is in, to include all elements of government. Corruption and apathy are the status quo. They are a lost cause, and our dollars continue to get wasted on them.

Your eight months during OIF I are absolutely of no comparison to current times in Iraq, I assure you. Things in Iraq are relative, surely, but you are poorly mistaken if you think your experience there in a completely different phase of the war is applicable to today. My mom was also scared while I was there, as was the rest of my family and friends. For good reason, too, as my battalion took 25% casualties during our 15 month deployment. I have personally seen Humvees in my element hit by IEDs multiple times in one movement of one day, so don't for one instant make some bullshit statment about how overblown the threat is in the media. Your misguided effort at downplaying the war is a huge insult to those facing true danger right this moment.

As I eluded to earlier, your words sound an awful lot like those of someone who's never seen the worst of it. You are in fact lucky for that.

AbeFM

iTrader: (3)

Jason:
You spout how he's going to save the coutry by taking money away from the classes who will spend it.

Please enlighten us here how this works. I don't want "the government has all the money", I want how it's supposed to have an effect - you know, an effect beyond making anyone 5 times richer than any of us here even more rich while we all sell our possetions to make rent.




Christ, that sucks. Sorry to hear you had to go through that.

AbeFM

iTrader: (3)

I'm waiting for you to tell me. I've asked in a very straightforward manner multiple times.


Tell us all how the richest few people in the country hiding money away helps in a way that the poorest people spending it does not.

Miatamaniac92

"Corruption and apathy are the status quo. They are a lost cause, and our dollars continue to get wasted on them."
I would disagree this is a lost cause. I would even say that the situation has rather improved in the last year (you won't hear the media celebrating that though). Regardless if we should've/could've/would've gone into Iraq, we are there now. We should not leave prematurely and before their country is stabilized, if ever. Corruption and apathy is the status quo for alot of nations, like most of Mexico or Africa. While Iraq may never be another America, we can atleast enable them to achieve decent government.

We are still in Japan, Germany, and Korea; that was not a mistake then/or historically.

I got back from Iraq in August, I'm also lucky to not have seen the worst of it. But our experience, while relevant, is not what policy makers use to decide policy. Those decisions are based on things happening alot higher up. I respect your service, but don't belittle someone else's experience. I don't feel he was downplaying the war at all. War is hell and people die.

Back on topic though; Ron Paul is not relevant now, and will never be. He is politically extreme. Strict Constitutionalism is not a good idea. Moderation is needed at all levels of the gov. Our form of gov. works nicely in that way. The politicians are held accountable to the voters when elections come around.

If Ron Paul wasn't so far out there he would get more votes and actually be able to change something. One congressman voting NO on everything doesn't really change anything.

I'm all for personnel liberties. Drugs should be legalized, it would definitely help the gene pool in the long run. LoL

Oh and the going back to the gold standard is retarded. Inflation is not a bad thing, especially if you own a home (here's a hint, buy a home). The Fed does a great job of regulating the economy. There is something called the business cycle, there will always be recessions. A gold standard would make those peaks last alot longer, not a god idea for anyone.

And also isolationism is a bad idea, see WWI and WWII. America is not imperialist (Osama says that right?). When is the last time we added a star to the flag or a protectorate?

Chris

JasonC SBB

CUT government spending!

em99sport

iTrader: (2)

I have my reasons to believe what I believe. I have been a part of meetings with local government leaders that simply don't have a clue or a will. I am, however, well aware of the fact that the media won't celebrate anything remotely positive regarding the whole Iraq situation.

I used to feel the same way in terms of us staying or leaving. We are there now, but the level of accomplishment is definitely questionable. While corruption and apathy might indeed be the status quo in a number of nations, Iraq happens to be the one in question, and for obvious reasons. Ideally, we could enable Iraq to jumpstart a reputable governmental structure, but that simply isn't the case. Bottom line.

The US military has been quickly decreasing troop numbers in both Germany and South Korea. The plan is still being carried out as we type this.

It is of note, as well, that the level of insurgency faced in Japan post WWII, while largely unreported, was nowhere near that of Iraq.

I don't feel as though I've belittled his experience one bit. He made some irritatingly ignorant comments. Anyone in the know would realize that IEDs were not a prominent threat until early '04. So, his statement that his regiment didn't face a big IED threat is irrelevant. Everybody was cruising around with no doors in '03, where as today Frag 5 up-armored Humvees are the standard. Additionally, his comments about soldiers hanging themselves in the barracks?... Are you ******* kidding me? Unfortunately, his saying that he was there buys him credibility to the masses. For his statements to be off-base make that misinformation.

JasonC SBB

Moderation? You call wars of aggression moderation? You think the size of government today is moderate? 45% of GDP??

Are you actually happy with the direction this country is going??

Don't you realize that the Constitution is the contract between a government and the people, and that the Constitution is a government's rulebook?

Read these:
Constitutional Chaos: What Happens When the Government Breaks Its Own Laws:
http://www.amazon.com/Constitutional...1324792&sr=8-2
"In this incisive and insightful book, Judge Andrew P. Napolitano peels back the legal veneer and shows how politicians, judges, prosecutors, and bureaucrats are trampling the U.S. Constitution in the name of law and order and fighting terrorism. Napolitano reveals how they:

silence the First Amendment
shoot holes in the Second
break some laws to enforce others
entrap citizens
steal private property
seize evidence without warrant
imprison without charge
kill without cause"


A Nation of Sheep:
http://www.amazon.com/Nation-Sheep-A...1324792&sr=8-1
"In A NATION OF SHEEP, Judge Andrew P. Napolitano frankly discusses how the federal government has circumvented the Constitution and is systematically dismantling the rights and freedoms that are the foundation of American democracy. He challenges Americans to recognize that they are being led down a very dangerous path and that the cost of following without challenge is the loss of the basic freedoms that facilitate our pursuit of happiness and that define us as a nation."

drewbroo

iTrader: (2)

wouldn't our dollar be worth more if it were backed in gold? at least in some points of the month. Ive made pretty good money over the past few years off of gold. Selling when its high, but still I usually get a few hundred bucks at the end of the month. Its a pain in the *** but its better than watching the dollar go down, And getting nothing out of it. I don't see a negative in going to the gold/dollar backing. Only people afraid of change are scared. (Typical...)

JasonC SBB

About what I like to call the "COMPOUND INTEREST PARADOX":

http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/diarypage.php?did=5751

-------------------

Is This the Beginning of a Worldwide Depression?

Diary Entry by Paul Rye

Is an end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it Great Depression in the making, or will the Fed save the day and send us on our way none-the-worse for wear except for the sentence of an eternity in Hell on the debt/inflation treadmill?

::::::::
The housing and stock market crashes taking place, the fall in the value of the dollar, and the apparent lack of foresight or leadership by the banking industry or Government leading up to the current situation are due to the nature of our monetary and banking system and Government’s relation with it. It is not a result of free markets, capitalism, corporate malfeasance, “normal business cycles”, etc.

The situation we find ourselves in was completely foreseeable by those within the top tier of the international bankers and national central bankers. To doubt this is to believe that the banking elite does not understand how credit creation via fractional reserve banking and lending at interest works, which is absurd.

Our monetary system contains only about 3% of money that is not debt. If all debts were paid or defaulted, about 3% of our money would remain in circulation or as deposits at banks. In 2006 there existed approximately $10 trillion in the M3 money supply. The total amount of money that would remain, if all debt was paid or defaulted, would be 0.3 trillion. Obviously, a contraction in the money supply of 97% is a worst case scenario, technically possible but not likely. However, a much smaller drop in the money supply would also be disastrous.

From 1929 to 1933 the money supply dropped by one-third, choking off credit and making it impossible for many individuals and businesses to spend or invest. Some argued that the drop in the money supply strangled the economy. Others argued that the worldwide depression that followed was caused by a lack of world economic leadership. The latter explanation contains a grain of truth, but it diverts attention from the monetary crux of the problem by suggesting that proper Government leadership might have increased liquidity and world economic growth at a critical time and averted the drop in the money supply.

Such “leadership” would only have postponed the problem, because a monetary system dependent on a credit-based money supply, lent into existence at interest, is inherently unstable. The crux of the problem is that mathematically, credit-based money is lent into existence at interest by a fractional reserve banking system that does not create the money needed to pay the interest. All debts cannot be repaid, because not enough money is lent into existence to repay both the principal and interest. Therefore, the interest must come from the existing pool of money. No matter what the quality of the participants, there must be losers.

The pressure on the losers to pay their debts makes the economy unnaturally competitive and growth-oriented, leading to excessive exploitation of natural and human resources. And, the only way to avoid an excessive number of losers is to keep increasing the total amount of debt, continually pumping more money (credit) into the system. Therefore, monetary inflation is necessary and endless.

There can be only two possible outcomes under this system: the game moves forward, the money supply expands, there is monetary inflation and economic expansion at the same time. Or, the game regresses, the money supply contracts, there is monetary deflation and economic and contraction at the same time. The reason there are only two outcomes is that the “third way”, a forever expanding money supply without price increases is not possible in a finite world.

If the U.S. and world economy fail to grow exponentially, then the banking elite temporarily lower interest rates to “stimulate” the economy. Under low interest rates, people are more willing to borrow, and more money is created to slosh around in the economy. If the economy still does not grow, then the effect of the extra money will noticed immediately as increases in prices of products and services. Because wages never increase as fast or as high as the price increases, society must accept ever increasing prices of all products and services and a decreasing standard of living.

If money cannot be pumped into the system fast enough or the people receiving the money cannot be encouraged to spent it in ways that support and maintain economic growth, then the money will not get distributed around the economy in a way that permits all borrows to pay their debts. Then, big trouble begins. When people fail to make payments, mortgages fail, and banks fail; when banks fail, the money supply contracts; when the money supply contracts, wages and Government tax receipts fall; when wages and tax receipts fall, both Government and people can pay even less. So, a vicious reinforcing cycle develops. Yes, the details on how this scenario can be triggered and progress can be mind-numbingly complex. Suffice it to say, a “Great Depression” is very bad.


A significant contraction in the money supply for whatever reason can lead to a Great Depression style economic contraction. People fear Depression because people can lose their jobs, their houses, and worse. No investment is safe in a Depression. Even if you think you can make a killer investment by say selling short in a stock market crash, you just might never collect it, if the brokerage that made your trade goes bankrupt, or so does the bank to which you transfer the funds. Banks fear Depression more than anything else, not just because it is bad for the neighbors, but because it is bad for them, and it can lead to questions about the legitimacy of the entire monetary/banking system.

If this vicious cycle develops, not just a few banks will be affected. The U.S. dollar is the most widely used currency in the world. Some 60%-70% of all currency in the world is U.S. dollars, and foreign banks keep their largest foreign reserves in dollars. World banks are now all interconnected via complex relationships and investments, including derivatives. A monetary crisis that begins with a subprime mortgage crisis in the U.S. or a failure of major debt insurance companies can snowball into a worldwide depression. Let me be perfectly clear. It is a credit-based money supply, lent into existence under a fractional reserve banking system, that makes this Great Depression scenario possible.

Now, at the risk of being repetitive, the international bankers do not care if you go bankrupt, but you can be certain they do not wish to join you, nor do they wish to lose their monopoly on the world’s money supply in the throes of a worldwide depression. So, the banking elite will do practically anything to avoid a disorderly contraction in the U.S. dollar and world money supplies.

One way the Federal Reserve can expand the U.S. money supply is to lower interest rates. That is why the Fed just announced an emergency 0.75% interest rate cut, today January 22, 2008. That move cut short what was shaping up to be a 400+ day drop in the Dow Index. What they did not say was than any tangible effect of a rate cut will not be felt in the economy for six months. The move was purely psychological. If the bleeding does not stop, more cuts will come, and the Fed will use other tricks as well. But, rest assured that the Fed will fight tooth and nail to prevent a contraction in the money supply. Ben Bernanke arrogantly believes the Fed has all the tools and methods today needed to always successfully increase the money supply and avoid depression. He might be right. Then again, he might not. The Titanic was unsinkable until it sank.

If the bankers succeed in preventing depression, there will be inflation, and lots of it. Gold and silver will be excellent investments. And, the horrible monetary/banking system will continue until world population growth and resource exploitation can no longer be maintained. Then, the mother of all crashes will occur.

If the bankers fail to prevent depression, then there will be no good investments, except maybe a six months supply of food suitable for long term storage. Cash money will be king, and because physical gold and silver are essentially cash money, you will not lose anything by keeping something invested in physical gold and silver instead of cash. And, there will be a chance, just a chance mind you, that the people and the Government will reconsider the wisdom of permitting this horrible monetary/banking system to continue.

JasonC SBB

[CONT]

The saddest fact to me is that other systems exist, other systems have been used before, and other systems are far more conducive to the general health and welfare of the people than the existing system. And, despite that, our Government and people have essentially blind faith in a stupid, cruel medieval system they do not understand. Just because computers are involved does not make it modern like a jet airplane or the Internet.

If you do not want to be a debt slave for the rest of your life, if you do not want to see generations of people in the U.S. and the third world be debt slaves for the rest of their lives, if you do not want to see the human and natural resources of this planet squandered simply to pay interest on loans that are not even necessary to create a workable monetary system, then you need to learn about how the existing system works, who perpetuates it, and how the whole system could be re-thought and re-designed.

This is more important than: overpopulation, peak oil, global warming, natural resource depletion, perpetual war, etc, because it is related to and exacerbates every other problem. Some problems, such as: over population, natural resource depletion, and perpetual war are practically direct results of the worldwide monetary/banking system.

After you rotate your investments into ETFs such as GLD and SLV, put aside about $5,000 in cash, $5,000 in gold or silver coins, and sock away six months of food, get to work learning about money. Reforming our monetary and banking system is the only fix that will help solve ALL our long term problems simultaneously. In other words, kill five or six birds with one stone. Begin by reading The Web of Debt, by Ellen Hodgson Brown, J.D., and The Future of Money, by Bernard Lietaer. Begin questioning every politician about it. And, get involved in any movement that aims to make monetary/banking system reform happen.

AbeFM

iTrader: (3)

That's the best you got? That's really all you can tell me, in your own words, about this idea of rich sitting on money making more things for the world?


If you can't explain your points, everyone here is going to know you have no clue what you're talking about. None.


Good question - I don't know. There was another guy commenting who seemed like he has some economics training. Here's one thing: If the US dollar were tied to gold, you'd certinaly never make money off gold - it would be worth the same all the time, pretty boring and hard to make a profit on.
Also, if some nation, quite litterally, is sitting on a gold mine, they suddenly get money for nothing. :-) It's them who really sets the price of things. In fact, across the world (untill Bush II), the US dollar WAS the world's gold standard, everything was measured in dollars. Oil was bought, in Japan, in US dollars. Not in Yen.

Thankfully, fiscal conservatism and making that extra effort in "good neighborism" on a global scale has freed us from affordable gasoline, goodwill, and a stable dollar.


Thanks very much for that. Now, let's hear you tell it. You're the one who's convinced the guy is a saint, destined to save the world, and your first post said it was entirely on the guy's fiscal policies.

So if you understand it well enough to vote for the guy based on this idea of tax breaks for the rich, please tell me in your own words what it all means.

Loki047

iTrader: (6)

Again you missed the point (not so surprising)

I don't support gay marriage. I support equal rights (but i guess thats not in the constitution according to you).

I disproved your infatuation with "one issue votes".

Jason when you talked to someone in person do you have these books and web pages with you? Or just tell them what to read?

JasonC SBB

Abe,

Do you really think that printing money for consumers to spend will "stimulate" the economy, when the mess we got in, is because the Fed has printed too much money for too long to begin with?

One of Ron Paul's stands is to get rid of the Federal income tax on WAGES. The biggest beneficiary will be the working poor, not the rich. The rich don't get paid wages and typically pay a much lower % of their income as taxes.

His other tenet is that you CANNOT cut taxes unless gov't cuts spending. The easiest place to cut spending is with the overseas military. We have 100+ countries in bases around the world. Gov't controls 45% of GDP now, and that is outrageous. Government is a virtual monopoly on many things, and everyone agrees government is very wasteful and squanders money.

One of the basic tenets of capitalism is that savings get plowed into investment. If you leave money in the bank, this money can get lent out to businesses to start investment, and investment generates wealth. SPENDING, on the other hand, while allowing money to change hands, doesn't produce nearly as much investment.

Abe, you need to understand the history of money and banking and the gold standard, and what the difference is between an asset backed currency, and a fiat currency. I started a thread called "the history of money and banking". It is actually quite an interesting topic after you start reading about it. Lots of things I did not know before I started reading up on it.

I've posted many times on the Compound Interest Paradox, and explained it MANY times in MY own words, on miata.net. You cannot accuse me of doing a "pathetic, uninformed, misunderstood cut-and-paste job." Here is the miata.net thread:

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=264448

JasonC SBB

Loki,

The constitution protects inalienable rights to life, liberty and property. The Constitution says all men are equal in the eyes of the law.

Re: government "supporting" hetero marriage, and "not supporting" same sex marriage... government should not be "supporting" hetero marriage either - it should not stick its nose in marriage which is a social contract. There should be no favors or tax breaks to married couples - heck, there should be no income tax on wages to begin with. What the government is doing is that it is subsidizing certain types of social behavior (e.g. getting married). Government should not be trying to regulate morality or behavior. The function of government is to protect individual rights. If one were to allow gov't to regulate this behavior, or that behavior, where does it stop? 55 mph speed limits? No cars >250 hp? The Constitution enumerates the powers that the Federal gov't can have, and says those are its ONLY powers. Remember that the design of the Constitution is to limit government powers specifically to prevent abuse. The Founding Fathers knew from history that governments have a tendency to grow in size and scope, and to abuse its powers and violate the rights of its citizens. The size of gov't was 12% of GDP in 1930 and has grown to 45% now. Where does it stop? Not only does gov't take and control 45% of the nation's economic output, it owes $9 Trillion! http://mwhodges.home.att.net/debt.htm

Taxes are so huge these days... government takes all this money from us, then we're supposed to be happy they're giving $800 back?

Exhondaman

That's no secret. During the early 1980s, the U.S. sided with Saddam Hussein in his war with Iran (1980-1988) in the belief that Ayatollah Khomeini’s attempts to export his Islamic revolution and strong anti-Americanism to the rest of the Persian Gulf represented the greater threat to U.S. interests.

We also supported Osama early on with the Mujahudeen against the expansion of Mother Russia. What's your point?

Like it or not, war and war policies are UGLY. I believe The Godfather said it best, you know it. Unfortunately, Isolationism (I know, RP is not all about strict Isolationism, but still) is not the proper way to deal with foreign countries that have an ideology of Sharia law.

Like I have debated/said on numerous forums, I LIKE most of RP's policies, but the ONE I can't stomach is his Iraq plan. Not only is it the WRONG thing to do, it's not realistic. Didn't the Dems promise to "Bring our troops home" or "not vote for more funding" when they were running for seats on Capital Hill? What happened? Didn't Nancy Pelosi and Ted Kennedy tell General Patreaus that he was "lying" when he gave his report in September that the war is improving? Wait, what happened to the War debate? Why is everyone so quiet about it NOW? Oh, because not enough soldiers are getting killed to add fuel to the fire, because in the mainstream media, good news from Iraq is not worthy news.

Really quick about drilling in Alaska, if the Republicans can't get into Anwar, what makes you think RP will? There's too many hippies, tree-huggers and seal-humpers to let that happen. Al gore would be all up in dat azz.

Going back to the original post about the Economics, I agree with RP on most points, some points I don't. Most importantly though, his proposals are to DRASTIC.

Exhondaman

Hmm...did you read the rebuttal from Dom Jermano?

This was brilliant...

And yes, I agree the current banking system is fubar'd. Did you know banking institutions/Wall Street are the largest contributors to presidential candidates?

How about Bush's Secretary Treasury, Henry Paulson was the Chairman of Goldman Sachs?

This $600 of pandering money the government is giving us will be a short-term bail-out of the corporations and wall street. Just like the .75% rate cut and the 140 million Bush is giving to the banks. They are all just greasing each other up.