tell me about 291 RWHP - Page 6 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 03-18-2008, 10:47 PM   #101
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lol who said wed see him on page 5? i need some more snacks, Oxygennetworkturbo.net is getting more and more interesting!
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Old 03-18-2008, 11:12 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msydnor View Post
According to the situation in question, and what she posted, she only swapped the DP. There was no tune before they swapped the pipe. This is according to what was posted. I don't understand how you can claim a specific HP increase when you never baselined the car in the first place. Yeah, tune and baseline with one pipe, then, tune with the second pipe. Makes perfect sense. But if you don't tune and baseline, it's difficult to tell how much increase came from the DP and how much is because of the tune. With a DP, and trying to measure the differance, I'd prefer to see the number with the same tune. I think that would be a better gauge of the difference in the two parts.
is this the thread you are talking about..

http://mazda-speed.com/forum2/index.php?topic=9153.0
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Old 03-19-2008, 03:26 AM   #103
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Damnit, I need to cancel my satellite service and just read here all day. Its just as entertaining...
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Old 03-19-2008, 09:18 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by MX5-4me View Post
To tune after the swap is the point.

You put a part on give it the best safe tune you can.. then swap a part and do the best safe tune you can get. They are doing it the right way.

your baseline idea doesn't make sense think about this way.. you put a GT2554r on and you tune it safe then you put a GT2560.. what does that give you really?

A poorly tuned GT2560 ..
Did they adjust the tune when they got the car with the FM pipe on before they swapped pipes? Swapping a pipe then tuning afterward doesn't show that the pipe is the improvement. How long ago was the initial tune on the car done? Can BEGI tune better now than when the initial tune was done? Octane, conditions and tuning can easily make a 20hp difference on the SAME car.

I'm not bashing BEGI as I have their DP (for a few more days til the whole it is sold) but claiming a 20 whp increase on a pipe when the car was retuned is as questionable if not more than FMs correction factor. I agree that if you change parts, you adjust the tune. But you don't turn around and claim something about the part then neglect to mention the car was retuned.

Dyno numbers are just for comparison. Dynojet people at sea level will claim FM numbers are inflated. Mustang dyno owners will claim all Dynojet numbers are inflated. Drag racers will claim that all dyno numbers are worthless.

This site is for true enthusiasts who are DIYers. That's about %10 of the turbo Miata population. The other %90 want to buy a kit, have it installed, turn the key and drive. FM and BEGI both provide this with very similar kits at a similar cost.

Frank
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:20 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by fmowry View Post
Did they adjust the tune when they got the car with the FM pipe on before they swapped pipes? Swapping a pipe then tuning afterward doesn't show that the pipe is the improvement. How long ago was the initial tune on the car done? Can BEGI tune better now than when the initial tune was done? Octane, conditions and tuning can easily make a 20hp difference on the SAME car.

I'm not bashing BEGI as I have their DP (for a few more days til the whole it is sold) but claiming a 20 whp increase on a pipe when the car was retuned is as questionable if not more than FMs correction factor. I agree that if you change parts, you adjust the tune. But you don't turn around and claim something about the part then neglect to mention the car was retuned.

Dyno numbers are just for comparison. Dynojet people at sea level will claim FM numbers are inflated. Mustang dyno owners will claim all Dynojet numbers are inflated. Drag racers will claim that all dyno numbers are worthless.

This site is for true enthusiasts who are DIYers. That's about %10 of the turbo Miata population. The other %90 want to buy a kit, have it installed, turn the key and drive. FM and BEGI both provide this with very similar kits at a similar cost.

Frank
you can sit around a debate this all you want or you can look at the post Stephanie put up that this guy is bitching about and read where she said:

Tuning will make a big difference also, like you said. However, I still believe the BEGi straight pipe will flow better. For the reason of the CAT alone.

She admitted that a tune might have helped. Yet he is still bitching about it. I think this sums up the problem most folks have with both venders. They get their panties in a wad over nothing. Some people need something to bitch about and 90% they are going to find it. (myself included)

Dynos are not for comparison they are for tuning. If a consumer buys in to the comparison thing then they are falling for marketing BS. I think you would be hard pressed to find a vender that doesn't fudge their numbers either knowingly or out of ignorance.

I've done business with both FM and BEGI, both have their strengths and weaknesses. I will continue to do business with both until they give me a reason not to.

This whimpyass namby pamby ***** *** **** ain't the reason.

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Old 03-19-2008, 10:35 AM   #106
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i think this is about the time I add the "beat dead horse smilie"

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Old 03-19-2008, 11:11 AM   #107
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i think this is about the time I add the "beat dead horse smilie"


You hurt my feelings .. WAAAAaAAAaAAHH!! OMFGWTFBSBBQR2D290210!!
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Old 03-19-2008, 12:53 PM   #108
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Why is that smiley beating that horses crotch?

Jealous maybe?
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Old 03-19-2008, 01:47 PM   #109
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So much hate.

With respect to "outsourced" parts, it's true that our castings are done overseas in India. And we are constantly trying to improve the quality there. The problems are mostly aesthetic, we haven't had a single failure of one of the manifolds yet. The flaking paint was a definite problem, I'll agree. There was one batch of manifolds that suffered from this. If you have one and we don't know about it, please contact us.

The stainless steel parts are all made in the US by a company that has consistent quality and can deliver. This is more important than you might think - a shop that does show-quality work but is erratic once in a while is a real liability. Okay, so a close-up of a weld might not look as pretty as a TIG can, but it's not going to fail.

As for correction factors - it's a problem that's never going to go away as long as we continue living at high altitude. If we post uncorrected numbers, they'll be artificially low due to the lower ambient pressure. If we use the SAE correction (which we do), then the case of the electronically controlled turbo car gets inflated somewhat. If we pick a number somewhere in between, then we've wandered off into the wilderness and are just making things up.

So we choose to use the SAE correction factor, because it's an industry standard. It means our MBC turbo cars, naturally aspirated cars and supercharged cars end up with numbers that are directly comparable to sea level. The EBC turbo cars will always be a bit of a hassle though. So we disclose the correction factor so people can reach their own conclusions, and we acknowledge the problem on our dyno page. Really, the shape of the curve would have to change to make it comparable to a sea level dyno.

If we have a chart showing 244 rwhp at 6 psi, please point it out to me. I suspect there's an error in there somewhere. That should be more like 12. And if you're going to use our charts to compare to other dyno runs in order to check the effectiveness of something like cams, remember that spoolup is definitely affected by altitude so you may not have an accurate comparison.

Is Jeremy the next Shiv Pathak? Hell, I sure hope not. And while he did have an embarrassing moment on the track at one of our Open Houses, he's an excellent tuner who does nothing but tune Miatas all day.
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Old 03-19-2008, 02:55 PM   #110
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Is Jeremy the next Shiv Pathak? Hell, I sure hope not.
I'm going to agree. This is the kind of hate that is well deserved
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Old 03-19-2008, 05:17 PM   #111
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Jeremy,

PM'd about 244hp at 6psi. Check your dyno page. I can understand if it's an honest mistake. It's tough to proof read everything on a website. It takes butt heads like me to point them out on a forum for all to see.
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Old 03-19-2008, 05:21 PM   #112
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Psst, my name's Keith

Okay, thanks for letting me know about the error. It was an honest mistake, the caption was supposed to be for the FM I that was a couple of runs earlier. I've removed the chart until I can track down what the boost level really was. I'm going to guess 10-12.

Last edited by [email protected]; 03-19-2008 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 03-19-2008, 05:23 PM   #113
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no way!
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Old 03-19-2008, 05:58 PM   #114
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244 WHP @ 6 psi is nothing... My friends mustang makes [email protected]
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:18 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Psst, my name's Keith

Okay, thanks for letting me know about the error. It was an honest mistake, the caption was supposed to be for the FM I that was a couple of runs earlier. I've removed the chart until I can track down what the boost level really was. I'm going to guess 10-12.
Keith, I'll be honest with you, outside of "hostile" circles, I have heard that Jeremy can be a dick at times to people he just doesn't like. You might want to make him aware that sometimes people perceive him as a little arrogant (for the record, other people absolutely love him too.) Just a heads up to help you all out.

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...68#post3015968 I was just having a little fun here. However it does beg an important point. The FM-II Voodoo is making 100+ HP less at 9 PSI of boost. Now while engine management is important, there should not be a 100+ HP discrepancy between the FM-II-H MSM and a 97 1.8 Miata at 9 PSI. Even after factoring in the Hydra, +3 PSI of boost, (I believe VA Beach has 93 octane) and the better MSM motor.

Mark
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:54 PM   #116
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Jeremy is very confident in his abilities, yes. This can be interpreted as arrogance.

The Voodoo cars are limited by the capacity of the stock fuel injectors. 180-190 is right where you run out of fuel.
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:02 PM   #117
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Jeremy is very confident in his abilities, yes. This can be interpreted as arrogance.

The Voodoo cars are limited by the capacity of the stock fuel injectors. 180-190 is right where you run out of fuel.
So at 4500 RPM they should be making MASSIVE amounts of torque, since there is more time to inject fuel. That simply is not the case.

If you have 190 RWHP @ 4500 RPM then you should have 221 ft/lbs of torque. HP capability of the injector is insensitive to the RPM it's attained at.

Mark
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:06 PM   #118
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Indeed, I find what Mark is pointing out interesting as well. Where did another 100whp come from?
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:47 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Markp View Post
So at 4500 RPM they should be making MASSIVE amounts of torque, since there is more time to inject fuel. That simply is not the case.

If you have 190 RWHP @ 4500 RPM then you should have 221 ft/lbs of torque. HP capability of the injector is insensitive to the RPM it's attained at.

Mark
Electronic boost control and full control over the timing curve makes a huge difference to the spoolup, as you know. Voodoo turbo kits have neither of these.

I would disagree that rpm is irrelevant. When you reach the limits of the injectors, you reach it at redline first. If your power and torque are falling off at redline, then you can push harder down low.

The Voodoo car is at the limits of its injectors. The modified MSM has bigger injectors, a well-tuned ECU and Texas 93 octane - probably the best non-race pump gas in the country - and it's at the limits of the turbo. Is 100 hp more plausible? I agree, it's certainly pushing the limits. But that MSM was exceptional and Jeremy says there isn't anything else in it.

Does it make sense to use a turbo with approximately 100 hp of headroom on a Voodoo kit? There's the real question. If you have future upgrades planned, sure. If you're planning to stay with the Voodoo, I usually recommend the 2554 so you get more response.
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:57 PM   #120
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needs more megasquirt
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