Abe's NB-MSII Adapterboard/PnP
08-31-2009, 05:48 PM
#121
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Quite right, totally my bad there. :-)
Code:
DB37 MS Net MS CPU Pin Schematic Name PnP Function 3 SPR1 JS11 /TACH_SIG_IN Tach 4 SPR2 JS6 /SPRE_SIG_IN Spare Driver 5 SPR3 JS4 /KnockSense_In Knock 6 SPR4 JS0 (IAC1A) /Boost_Sld_CTL EBC 23 O2 O2 /WBO2_In WBO2/NB 24 TACHSELECT TSEL /CRK_Filt_In Crank 25 IAC1A JS10 /Op-Amp_CAM Cam 27 IAC1B D15 /FANS_SIG_IN FANS 29 IAC2A JS2(IAC2A) /VICS_SIG_IN VICS 30 IDL Idle-1 /IDLE_SIG_IN IDLE 31 IAC2B D16 /Spark_B_Ctrl Spark B 36 IGN D14 /Spark_A_Ctrl Spark A
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08-31-2009, 08:15 PM
#125
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There might be a factor of 2 here but the basic idea:
I set it for 180* to turn on the fans. So you hit 180, they turn on. The water cools 0.1 degrees, they turn off, then they turn on cause more water sloshed around, then off then on.....
They can switch many times per second. So, ten degrees of hysteresis says "When you switch, don't change state till you've moved 10 degrees".
So 190/10 means the fans will turn on, and STAY on until the temps drop to 180. Be careful here, 190-10 = 180, the thermo might shut off at 182, meaning the fans will stay on even when the water isn't circulating. A better answer would be 195/10 or 190/5. I guess I'd run something like 192/7 to give myself some margin.
I set it for 180* to turn on the fans. So you hit 180, they turn on. The water cools 0.1 degrees, they turn off, then they turn on cause more water sloshed around, then off then on.....
They can switch many times per second. So, ten degrees of hysteresis says "When you switch, don't change state till you've moved 10 degrees".
So 190/10 means the fans will turn on, and STAY on until the temps drop to 180. Be careful here, 190-10 = 180, the thermo might shut off at 182, meaning the fans will stay on even when the water isn't circulating. A better answer would be 195/10 or 190/5. I guess I'd run something like 192/7 to give myself some margin.
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09-04-2009, 01:29 PM
#127
Ok, the march forward continues with the board.
Alternator doesnt work.. Battery light is on though, but the battery isnt charging.
Answering your questions abe, yup, all jumpers are in, and all the parts that were supposed to go in "funky" are in their "funky" direction. Possibly the output pin is wrong? I pulled the board out of the car. I dont have a jimstim to bench test it, so ill be in the dark for this process.
I do remember a thread where the pin might have been in the wrong place, Im probably thinking of frank's "suckcess" thread. Im going to take a look at the schematic to check the color code of the alternator wire on the stock harness, unles you know it from the top of your head?
EDIT: Pulled up the alternator circuit.
Is the alternator circuit's line the Gray/Red wire?
For reference:
Alternator doesnt work.. Battery light is on though, but the battery isnt charging.
Answering your questions abe, yup, all jumpers are in, and all the parts that were supposed to go in "funky" are in their "funky" direction. Possibly the output pin is wrong? I pulled the board out of the car. I dont have a jimstim to bench test it, so ill be in the dark for this process.
I do remember a thread where the pin might have been in the wrong place, Im probably thinking of frank's "suckcess" thread. Im going to take a look at the schematic to check the color code of the alternator wire on the stock harness, unles you know it from the top of your head?
EDIT: Pulled up the alternator circuit.
Is the alternator circuit's line the Gray/Red wire?
For reference:
Last edited by Marc D; 09-04-2009 at 02:53 PM.
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09-04-2009, 02:37 PM
#128
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Similar to you, I remember hearing the pin was the wrong one - and swapping it in my board. I had no end of frustration trying to get it to work on the connector
Alternator Control box from Mopar - AbeFM's Photos
I remember having a really hard time telling which wire was which. The first thing to check is that the alternator circuit is functioning, i.e. there's a jumper by the screw terminal block on my board... JP2, check the square pin on there, you should have a voltage on it when the car is powered. If so (likely around 900 mV) it means the circuit is working, then it's a wire issue.
Is this something you can check now?
Ah, your schematic doesn't say anything anyway. :-) PCM behind RIGHT side of dash?
Alternator Control box from Mopar - AbeFM's Photos
Ground the case, I found it convenient to mount it near the radiator overflow bottle.
Hook the BLUE wire to switched(?) " 12v" battery voltage, pin 1-B on the factory ECU.
Hook the GREEN wire to the Grey/Red wire on the alternator, pin 1-O on the factory ECU. (NOTE, this might be the grey wire on pin 1-T, verifying)
I let line 1-T hang, I'm not really sure what it is, it seems to be measuring the voltage of one coil of the generator, before rectification. Not sure what that's good for, maybe you could get engine RPM out of it, or total alternator capacity.
Hook the BLUE wire to switched(?) " 12v" battery voltage, pin 1-B on the factory ECU.
Hook the GREEN wire to the Grey/Red wire on the alternator, pin 1-O on the factory ECU. (NOTE, this might be the grey wire on pin 1-T, verifying)
I let line 1-T hang, I'm not really sure what it is, it seems to be measuring the voltage of one coil of the generator, before rectification. Not sure what that's good for, maybe you could get engine RPM out of it, or total alternator capacity.
Is this something you can check now?
Ah, your schematic doesn't say anything anyway. :-) PCM behind RIGHT side of dash?
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09-04-2009, 02:50 PM
#129
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It's definitely the grey wire with red stripe (NOT the red dots), the other wire hanging.
Which pin on the ECU this goes to, I don't know. I got under the dash and the only grey/red wire I saw went to connector two, so I don't think that's it. I did leave the other wire to hand.
If you wanted to test to make sure everything works, you can bridge JP2 (put a wire across it), then put a test lead or wire into the screw terminal block (you DO have your 900mV there, right?) and put that into the alternator.
If it turns out it's the wrong pin on the harness, that's easy to fix. If it's your circuit just not working, we can fix that too. I can try to measure this, but not anytime really soon.
Which pin on the ECU this goes to, I don't know. I got under the dash and the only grey/red wire I saw went to connector two, so I don't think that's it. I did leave the other wire to hand.
If you wanted to test to make sure everything works, you can bridge JP2 (put a wire across it), then put a test lead or wire into the screw terminal block (you DO have your 900mV there, right?) and put that into the alternator.
If it turns out it's the wrong pin on the harness, that's easy to fix. If it's your circuit just not working, we can fix that too. I can try to measure this, but not anytime really soon.
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09-04-2009, 02:58 PM
#130
It's definitely the grey wire with red stripe (NOT the red dots), the other wire hanging.
Which pin on the ECU this goes to, I don't know. I got under the dash and the only grey/red wire I saw went to connector two, so I don't think that's it. I did leave the other wire to hand.
If you wanted to test to make sure everything works, you can bridge JP2 (put a wire across it), then put a test lead or wire into the screw terminal block (you DO have your 900mV there, right?) and put that into the alternator.
If it turns out it's the wrong pin on the harness, that's easy to fix. If it's your circuit just not working, we can fix that too. I can try to measure this, but not anytime really soon.
Which pin on the ECU this goes to, I don't know. I got under the dash and the only grey/red wire I saw went to connector two, so I don't think that's it. I did leave the other wire to hand.
If you wanted to test to make sure everything works, you can bridge JP2 (put a wire across it), then put a test lead or wire into the screw terminal block (you DO have your 900mV there, right?) and put that into the alternator.
If it turns out it's the wrong pin on the harness, that's easy to fix. If it's your circuit just not working, we can fix that too. I can try to measure this, but not anytime really soon.
CONFIRMED: I JUST checked and it turns out the pin is on the wrong wire.
The board goes to 1T which is the gray wire. Its supposed to be on a gray/red-striped wire which lies on pin 1O. On the board, pin 1O is a dead trace.
Connector 2 has the crank signals and other sensors mainly. There is another grey/red wire on the connector 2, but its for the crank signal.
Last edited by Marc D; 09-04-2009 at 03:09 PM.
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09-04-2009, 03:07 PM
#131
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Well, the fix is easy, though I'm annoyed I screwed it up. :-\
Take an exacto or razor and cut a short break in that trace 1T, or (better, perhaps, but hard to do) cut the pin there. You could cut the wire on the factory harness, but now we're getting crazy. :-)
if you cut the pin: jump over from 1T to 1O with a wire, solder it on.
If you cut the trace, you can pick up that voltage on the jumper block - this is probably your best bet:
run a wire from the pin sticking out the bottom of the board, under the words "ALT_CTL_SIG" to pin 1O. And don't forget to cut the trace, it should be coming from a through-board via. I'll post a pic of what to cut in just a second.
Take an exacto or razor and cut a short break in that trace 1T, or (better, perhaps, but hard to do) cut the pin there. You could cut the wire on the factory harness, but now we're getting crazy. :-)
if you cut the pin: jump over from 1T to 1O with a wire, solder it on.
If you cut the trace, you can pick up that voltage on the jumper block - this is probably your best bet:
run a wire from the pin sticking out the bottom of the board, under the words "ALT_CTL_SIG" to pin 1O. And don't forget to cut the trace, it should be coming from a through-board via. I'll post a pic of what to cut in just a second.
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09-04-2009, 03:40 PM
#132
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All better now. Here's the idea, cut one trace, and run one wire. There are other places to pick this up, but this lets you still use the jumper as intended, so I like it.
high res available here:
http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/639348511_9YKih-O-1.jpg
high res available here:
http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/639348511_9YKih-O-1.jpg
Last edited by AbeFM; 09-04-2009 at 03:52 PM.
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09-04-2009, 04:27 PM
#133
Good, thats exactly what I did. I put the board back, and tried to start it, and it starts good, but...
The battery is only charging at 13.4-13.8. Weird. Nevertheless, it does charge. If the battery does happen to drop below to the 12V area, the battery light does come on though.
Anyway, I think its safe to start tuning. Im still trying to get a steady idle, and its really shitty ATM. Maybe ill look into Jean's PWM multiplier board so I can properly run CL idle.
The battery is only charging at 13.4-13.8. Weird. Nevertheless, it does charge. If the battery does happen to drop below to the 12V area, the battery light does come on though.
Anyway, I think its safe to start tuning. Im still trying to get a steady idle, and its really shitty ATM. Maybe ill look into Jean's PWM multiplier board so I can properly run CL idle.
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09-04-2009, 05:03 PM
#134
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My car charges at 13.2, don't worry about it. :-)
Absolutely do NOT try to get CL working until you have a good idle. That's like having some sort of compression leak so thinking "I'll put on a homebrew turbo kit to see if I can't use it to diagnose the engine problem."
Just open the valve a bit more until you get good idle. Until someone shows it works well, I don't buy this valve frequency thing. It's not a matter of resolution, it's a matter of the valve not opening and closing when it should.
Absolutely do NOT try to get CL working until you have a good idle. That's like having some sort of compression leak so thinking "I'll put on a homebrew turbo kit to see if I can't use it to diagnose the engine problem."
Just open the valve a bit more until you get good idle. Until someone shows it works well, I don't buy this valve frequency thing. It's not a matter of resolution, it's a matter of the valve not opening and closing when it should.
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09-04-2009, 05:30 PM
#135
Stupid question, is Opening up the idle is a matter of increasiing the PWM duty table?
Anyway, Im going to set the timing, pull that NA CAS and sell it, and fix up everything under the dash. Going to finish complete the box that I was making, it was a good idea that i didnt get too far with the box.
Debating if I should clean off the remaining flux on the board. If I do, I gotta wait a bit to let it dry.
The consensus: Fans are working good, Alternator is charging, AIT reads good, CLT reads good, etc etc. Im sure KS and the boost should work, I just gotta wait for the car to be in good running condition before i start messing with the boost.
Anyway, Im going to set the timing, pull that NA CAS and sell it, and fix up everything under the dash. Going to finish complete the box that I was making, it was a good idea that i didnt get too far with the box.
Debating if I should clean off the remaining flux on the board. If I do, I gotta wait a bit to let it dry.
The consensus: Fans are working good, Alternator is charging, AIT reads good, CLT reads good, etc etc. Im sure KS and the boost should work, I just gotta wait for the car to be in good running condition before i start messing with the boost.
Last edited by Marc D; 09-04-2009 at 05:49 PM.
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09-04-2009, 05:51 PM
#136
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There's probably nothing on the board that 200-300 degrees would hurt, so a hair drier or even just putting it in the oven will dry it off really fast. Blow it off is even better.
It warms the cockles of my heart to have someone selling their CAS sensor. :-)
Keep us posted on the box, its a nice set up. Yes, the duty table is what you want. I had mine down to the wire, adding 3% should keep you running well enough to get the idle decent.
I also put a lot more fuel in the bottom left 3 cells of the table to keep it from stalling when it bogs, and yes, I creep along just fine at 400 rpm.
You can tune the knocksense before you have a turbo, just free rev it.
It warms the cockles of my heart to have someone selling their CAS sensor. :-)
Keep us posted on the box, its a nice set up. Yes, the duty table is what you want. I had mine down to the wire, adding 3% should keep you running well enough to get the idle decent.
I also put a lot more fuel in the bottom left 3 cells of the table to keep it from stalling when it bogs, and yes, I creep along just fine at 400 rpm.
You can tune the knocksense before you have a turbo, just free rev it.
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09-04-2009, 09:28 PM
#137
I think its safe to say, its done. The box isn't pretty, but it will definitely work.
Pictures!
I shaved the top of the board where the harness plug sits. Its shown here. Don't mind the extra wire there, I felt like i accidentally severed another trace while i was killing the alternator one, so I just ran another wire for insurance.
There is glue here covering the DB37. Just used hot glue. I used it for insurance that the box side cover doesnt touch and short it.
Here is another shot on where I shaved the board. Sorry abe, I had to get rid of your trademark writing... Its still on the other side though! ^_^
Another Shot where it was shaved
This is the bottom of the board. THere are just two screws there at the bottom, and with a bunch of washers to level the board. The board sits within the side rails, so basically, the screw posts just hold the board in place from moving. On the back side, towards the top right side, there is a hole for the terminal posts where the wires can be fed.
Another shot.
Take note here. I had to shave the "rail" area beacuse the black mount of the DB37 wouldnt fit in there of course. On top of that, I shaved down the side of the DB37 too. You can see it in the pics above.
This is the "top cover" of the box. it just has a cut hole for the harness plug.
Here is the board in place.
A shot on how the board is mounted.
The other side of the board. Yes, there will be space here. The board doesnt fit THAT perfect
Here is the other side of the box. This is the hole where the terminal posts are.
Heres a shot of the terminal post area with the cover top.
Other side, harness area with the cover.
I could have done this more prettier, but I was being lazy and i Just wanted it to be done. You can just measure this and cut it to your needs. This is the DB37 connector cover. The underside of the board where the pins are sit a little close to the cover, so i used glue to seal it for insurance, which you saw in earlier pics.
Another shot.
And there you have it. It only cost me about 17 bucks in supplies, and I have a dremel handy. I wish i had something that could cut it with better precision, but I just dont have that kind of tools or access to any tools of the like. Im sure you guys can make it look a lot better with the proper tools, but this will work for me.
Pictures!
I shaved the top of the board where the harness plug sits. Its shown here. Don't mind the extra wire there, I felt like i accidentally severed another trace while i was killing the alternator one, so I just ran another wire for insurance.
There is glue here covering the DB37. Just used hot glue. I used it for insurance that the box side cover doesnt touch and short it.
Here is another shot on where I shaved the board. Sorry abe, I had to get rid of your trademark writing... Its still on the other side though! ^_^
Another Shot where it was shaved
This is the bottom of the board. THere are just two screws there at the bottom, and with a bunch of washers to level the board. The board sits within the side rails, so basically, the screw posts just hold the board in place from moving. On the back side, towards the top right side, there is a hole for the terminal posts where the wires can be fed.
Another shot.
Take note here. I had to shave the "rail" area beacuse the black mount of the DB37 wouldnt fit in there of course. On top of that, I shaved down the side of the DB37 too. You can see it in the pics above.
This is the "top cover" of the box. it just has a cut hole for the harness plug.
Here is the board in place.
A shot on how the board is mounted.
The other side of the board. Yes, there will be space here. The board doesnt fit THAT perfect
Here is the other side of the box. This is the hole where the terminal posts are.
Heres a shot of the terminal post area with the cover top.
Other side, harness area with the cover.
I could have done this more prettier, but I was being lazy and i Just wanted it to be done. You can just measure this and cut it to your needs. This is the DB37 connector cover. The underside of the board where the pins are sit a little close to the cover, so i used glue to seal it for insurance, which you saw in earlier pics.
Another shot.
And there you have it. It only cost me about 17 bucks in supplies, and I have a dremel handy. I wish i had something that could cut it with better precision, but I just dont have that kind of tools or access to any tools of the like. Im sure you guys can make it look a lot better with the proper tools, but this will work for me.
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09-04-2009, 09:39 PM
#138
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I'm a huge hot-glue fan, the more I use it the more I like it. Totally removable, pretty fast and painless. Plus finding a gun plus more glue than I'll even use for like $10 from china helped. :-)
Now we need burnout vids. :-P Or at least injector and statup settings. Did you check the timing yet?
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09-04-2009, 09:46 PM
#139
I just got done with the board about an hour ago, so im going to put it back in and put all the other wires onto the board. I think im just going to mount the adapter board on top of the MS, and then find a way to hang them up there. Theres a HUGE amount of room up there now that i pulled the damn OEM ECU. Maybe i can make a bracket with some supplies from walmart. Should not be hard at all. Or i can just say **** it and zip tie the damn thing up there 
Im going to set the timing after i get that all squared. I hate working with the timing light, because I have to use jumper cables straight from my battery just to power up the damn thing. I dont have a 12V reference from within my engine bay for some reason.
Oh and that CAS is coming out tonight!
Im going to set the timing after i get that all squared. I hate working with the timing light, because I have to use jumper cables straight from my battery just to power up the damn thing. I dont have a 12V reference from within my engine bay for some reason.
Oh and that CAS is coming out tonight!
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09-04-2009, 09:55 PM
#140
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Ms MS was bungee cord mounted for like... a year. Makes it easy to get out, though, will dell development work maybe you won't HAVE to change the input circuits twice a week. :-P Don't know how good you got it. :-P
You can clip onto the bolt in the fuse block under the hood, that's switched 12. Also the bolt on the alternator (though I don't like using that, too easy to break the cover).
Too bad it's worth something, blowing up, drilling, torching the CAS would be awesome. :-)
And yeah, no one believes me about the extra room once the OEM box is out. Totally true though.
Im going to set the timing after i get that all squared. I hate working with the timing light, because I have to use jumper cables straight from my battery just to power up the damn thing. I dont have a 12V reference from within my engine bay for some reason.
Oh and that CAS is coming out tonight!
Oh and that CAS is coming out tonight!
Too bad it's worth something, blowing up, drilling, torching the CAS would be awesome. :-)
And yeah, no one believes me about the extra room once the OEM box is out. Totally true though.
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