Abe's NB-MSII Adapterboard/PnP
#181
Who knows, I might give it another try - it still bothers me in principle... It doesn't do PID control. You can't just say "I'd sure like it if it responded to the RPM being too low by opening the valve more", you can only put in numbers they say works. Which is how the last set worked, and worked poorly.
Everytime they put out new code it's got *something* worse than the previous. Not to say that overall it isn't worth doing, but you have to keep it in mind. I'll probably upgrade myself in a bit due to "improved AEA settings" (or is it EAE?) which are supposed to run faster. The simple one worked amazingly well but after the "10x change for sensitivity" my tires don't chirp whenever I touch the gas anymore.
Ok, enough MS-II code bashing. :-)
Ok, enough MS-II code bashing. :-)
About the EAE (Enhanced Accel Enrichment), school me on it. Whats it do and why is it so useful. Im lost with wtf "Sucked-from-Walls" or "Adhere-to-Walls" constants are.
I have a long cable which locates the MS behind the passenger glovebox. I used to strap it to the AC box, which was excellent. Easy to reach, gently suspended, short vacuum lines... Then I took out the AC, and moved the MS to high on the wall of the transmission tunnel, parallel to it, in the passenger footwell. Sometimes people kick out the serial adapter now, and once it rotated down due to a loose screw, the DB-37 came partway out, only enough to disable the fuel pump, and it took me a long time to figure out why - AFTER my tow home (I thought the FP broke on the road).
I do remember checking the MS + board, with no cable, looked like it would fit above the steering column, but never figured out just how I would mount it. I've trimmed the tie downs on the OEM harness so I could reach the plug nearly anywhere and it made a big difference. Perhaps you need to free the beast as well.
I do remember checking the MS + board, with no cable, looked like it would fit above the steering column, but never figured out just how I would mount it. I've trimmed the tie downs on the OEM harness so I could reach the plug nearly anywhere and it made a big difference. Perhaps you need to free the beast as well.
Trimming the Tie downs? So the harness plugs have a lot more room to move? I have to twist the damn plugs to make it fit just right, and its getting annoying. The board sits strangely under the dash, but if I try to move it, it's putting unnecessary strain on the harness.
#182
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,047
Total Cats: 12
Now that I think about it, it would have been a better idea to have made a relay cable that was long enough to reach so I can place the damn thing in the glove box. It was have left a lot more space up under the dash, not that space is a problem anymore. Its just easier to work with with less **** up there.
Trimming the Tie downs? So the harness plugs have a lot more room to move? I have to twist the damn plugs to make it fit just right, and its getting annoying. The board sits strangely under the dash, but if I try to move it, it's putting unnecessary strain on the harness.
#185
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (33)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: atlanta-ish
Posts: 12,659
Total Cats: 134
My idle valve wasn't working correctly yesterday, so we unplugged it. It would open up when I burned in an msq change and I'd idle really high. But it wouldn't work otherwise. We opened up the bypass screw to maintain 1000 rpm. To be honest, it's really not bad that way.
Abe did you scope your idle valve frequency from the stock computer? I copied your settings.
#186
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,047
Total Cats: 12
My idle valve wasn't working correctly yesterday, so we unplugged it. It would open up when I burned in an msq change and I'd idle really high. But it wouldn't work otherwise. We opened up the bypass screw to maintain 1000 rpm. To be honest, it's really not bad that way.
Abe did you scope your idle valve frequency from the stock computer? I copied your settings.
Abe did you scope your idle valve frequency from the stock computer? I copied your settings.
I don't remember if I checked or not, but it seems to work, so I haven't worried about it too much.
You know, you can check this on the stim, right? Set it for PWM Warmup, and set an table with a lot of variation,a nd look for the LED to get brighter/darker as temp changes. Another way is the start up % is (in my case) ~60, and running is about 30, so I can see the LED get dimmer once the RPM's peak over 400 or so.
Do you have a datalog? What does it say your valve open percent is? I haven't really analyzed it beyond being sure it works. Perhaps I wrote my settings down wrong?
#187
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (33)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: atlanta-ish
Posts: 12,659
Total Cats: 134
It's only been running about 24 hours now Abe.
And really, thanks for your posts. A lot of my settings are based on yours.
I'll check a factory computer car for f, if DIY Autotune doesn't beat me to it.
There might be something weird in the 2.1.1b code for my uS controller, because it was reporting duty cycle on the dashboard, but the valve was not active. Except for when I hit burn, then the valve would open and the car would maintain a very high idle for the duration of the burn.
We'll get it sorted in short order, I'm sure.
And really, thanks for your posts. A lot of my settings are based on yours.
I'll check a factory computer car for f, if DIY Autotune doesn't beat me to it.
There might be something weird in the 2.1.1b code for my uS controller, because it was reporting duty cycle on the dashboard, but the valve was not active. Except for when I hit burn, then the valve would open and the car would maintain a very high idle for the duration of the burn.
We'll get it sorted in short order, I'm sure.
#188
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,047
Total Cats: 12
Sounds like you might have it on the wrong port? Either in software or in your wiring?
Or maybe you have something utterly backwards like putting power in instead of gating power out. :-\
Or maybe you have something utterly backwards like putting power in instead of gating power out. :-\
#189
Ok, the IAC valve should be arriving today. I do have a few questions about the mods you did on the MS board itself abe.
I know you said to jumper pins 2-3 on Q4 correct? I was reading through the manual one more time, and It said not to install Q20 and to jumper R39 if using the PWM idle valve. I noticed on your customer's build that Q20 was installed, and you had a resistor in place rather than a jumper. I dont have Q20 installed, and I have a jumper 9in place of R39. Would this make a difference in my valve working correctly?
I know you said to jumper pins 2-3 on Q4 correct? I was reading through the manual one more time, and It said not to install Q20 and to jumper R39 if using the PWM idle valve. I noticed on your customer's build that Q20 was installed, and you had a resistor in place rather than a jumper. I dont have Q20 installed, and I have a jumper 9in place of R39. Would this make a difference in my valve working correctly?
#190
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,047
Total Cats: 12
You should be alright. You don't need/want Q20 nor the jumper on R39. Both could be left open.
You did mention the valve opens when burning? That says the MS is capable of running it. Presumably D8 isn't anything weird? I guess if you were really desperate you could jumper over R19 but I wouldn't just yet.
I'll go double check the transistor can be turned on with 5V. (edit: Duh, I know it does.)
Last edited by AbeFM; 09-16-2009 at 08:28 PM.
#196
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,047
Total Cats: 12
I'm curious to know, too. Several people are close, not one yet has it in. I did get Leo C's to run my car, and it controlled the idle.
<wanders off>
full res: http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/572881712_6GoVJ-O.jpg
Looks like the transistor and resistor were in there on his board. They certainly don't seem to do anything that would help (just a scheme for limiting current) but I could be wrong...
I guess we could have Joe or Jason or someone who knows what an electron is pass judgment.
<wanders off>
full res: http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/572881712_6GoVJ-O.jpg
Looks like the transistor and resistor were in there on his board. They certainly don't seem to do anything that would help (just a scheme for limiting current) but I could be wrong...
I guess we could have Joe or Jason or someone who knows what an electron is pass judgment.
#198
WELL ****.
Tried to use the spare IAC valve that came in. NO ******* CHANGE.
I hooked up a 12V to the pins and grounded them to see if they move. Yup. Checks out. BOTH ARE WORKING. So now I have as spare IAC 99 with throttle body. GGotta sell this off, or just keep it for good measure.
Now, there is DEFINITELY something wrong with the wiring, or the pins on the board. Im going to peer into the harness one more time to double check whats going on and to see if the pins are going to the right pins on my damn car. Ill keep you informed.
EDIT: Pins on the board check out. I just went back a few pages on the wiring of the MS.
Ok. I feel like this was all a big stupid mistake on my part. Is there a wire that's supposed to be jumpered to pin 30 on the DB connector for Idle control?
EDIT2: Examined the MS board, and pin 30 does have its own trace to D8, then from that pin on D8 to the idle collector which, instead, you put a jumper on. I am officially stumped.
Is there a way to check the transistor? Maybe the transistor was damaged?
Tried to use the spare IAC valve that came in. NO ******* CHANGE.
I hooked up a 12V to the pins and grounded them to see if they move. Yup. Checks out. BOTH ARE WORKING. So now I have as spare IAC 99 with throttle body. GGotta sell this off, or just keep it for good measure.
Now, there is DEFINITELY something wrong with the wiring, or the pins on the board. Im going to peer into the harness one more time to double check whats going on and to see if the pins are going to the right pins on my damn car. Ill keep you informed.
EDIT: Pins on the board check out. I just went back a few pages on the wiring of the MS.
Ok. I feel like this was all a big stupid mistake on my part. Is there a wire that's supposed to be jumpered to pin 30 on the DB connector for Idle control?
EDIT2: Examined the MS board, and pin 30 does have its own trace to D8, then from that pin on D8 to the idle collector which, instead, you put a jumper on. I am officially stumped.
Is there a way to check the transistor? Maybe the transistor was damaged?
Last edited by Marc D; 09-17-2009 at 05:36 PM.
#199
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,047
Total Cats: 12
Sorry to hear that!
The first thing to check, after if the valve is good, is if there's +12V across it. Turn the car on, look measure voltage at the connector. I guess you already did and it was reasonable. Does changing the duty cycle vary the voltage?
I was thinking maybe a diode is in backwards, but that's not right. The 12V off my board is as good as 12V from somewhere else, so I'm a bit confused by all this.
I guess I would try looking on the stim, to see if the LED gets brighter and darker as you turn the clt ****. You're sure the wires aren't broken or anything?
A well sharpened paperclip or sweing needle can get into the back of the connector, you might look at it while the connector is on the IAC to see what the MS is giving it, voltage wise, or break the chain (cut a wire or aligator clips or if you're smart at the jumper block on my board) and see what kinda current you get. Should be a few amps.
The first thing to check, after if the valve is good, is if there's +12V across it. Turn the car on, look measure voltage at the connector. I guess you already did and it was reasonable. Does changing the duty cycle vary the voltage?
I was thinking maybe a diode is in backwards, but that's not right. The 12V off my board is as good as 12V from somewhere else, so I'm a bit confused by all this.
I guess I would try looking on the stim, to see if the LED gets brighter and darker as you turn the clt ****. You're sure the wires aren't broken or anything?
A well sharpened paperclip or sweing needle can get into the back of the connector, you might look at it while the connector is on the IAC to see what the MS is giving it, voltage wise, or break the chain (cut a wire or aligator clips or if you're smart at the jumper block on my board) and see what kinda current you get. Should be a few amps.
#200
I don't know how the voltage would change with the change in duty cycle... would the resistance on the return wire fluctuate instead?
A well sharpened paperclip or sweing needle can get into the back of the connector, you might look at it while the connector is on the IAC to see what the MS is giving it, voltage wise, or break the chain (cut a wire or aligator clips or if you're smart at the jumper block on my board) and see what kinda current you get. Should be a few amps.
I also checked if i have continuity on my relay cable, checks out ok. It has to be something on the adapterboard. I don't see where it could fail on the MS side.