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Old 01-17-2014, 01:19 AM   #1
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Default MS3X installed..car wont start...

Decided to start a new thread because my old one didn't get to the point right away... Ms3x is currently installed, (looked over by EO2K, which has been a big help) yet it wont start up...current tune and composite log are provided.. but this is where we are stuck...any ideas on what to do next?
car current set up:
97 with 2860
ms3x brain built
gm iat
aem uego
id725 injectors
stock cas and crank wheel

Thanks in advance
Charlie
Attached Files
File Type: msq JCTune.msq (178.1 KB, 43 views)
File Type: csv CrankLog.csv (20.4 KB, 46 views)
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Old 01-17-2014, 02:02 AM   #2
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Yup Yup! OG thread: https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquir...ase-map-76496/

Cliffs:
MS3x install and setup double checked until we got to the part where we set the timing. MS is currently locked at 10 and we confirmed TDC by dropping a rod down cylinder 1. Timing marks on the harmonic balancer are where expected. The engine is/was somewhere close to 14 to start before the MS adventure so we cant be that far off, but timing light is showing waaaaaaaay off for no particular reason that I can come up with.

Def need some help over here. Thanks all.
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:43 PM   #3
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Still stuck on this... anyone have any ideas on what could be going wrong???
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:32 PM   #4
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Crap.

jcmusmc00: Plug in, turn the system on, fire up TunerStudio and go Ignition Settings > Ignition Options/Wheel Decoder > and change the "Spark mode(dizzy, EDIS, wheel)" option from "4G63" to "Miata 99-05".

Burn, close, power everything off, turn it back on and then see it the car will start. If I remember correctly I think I had this exact same problem with my DIYPNP when I first installed it

Props to VitaminJ for pointing this out: https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquir...2/#post1094190
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Old 01-21-2014, 09:35 PM   #5
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Ok I will try this tonight when Im back home
Thanks EO2k
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:08 AM   #6
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Why would you change the trigger wheel decoder from 4G63 (90-97 miatas) on a 97 miata to the 99-05 decoder?

I don't have TS installed here, but it appears to be syncing in that composite log when viewed in Excel. Why would you change the trigger decoder? That would prevent it from syncing.

Timing needs to be unlocked when trying to get it to start.

But can you confirm the tach in TS is reporting back RPMs during cranking? This is the first logical step. If there's no RPMs in TS, it's not syncing and it will never run.

IF you are getting them, then it's a matter of fine tuning the map. Most likely the fuel. Again, since I dont have TS here I cant see the REQ_Fuel value and the fuel maps, but it probably just doesn't have enough fuel to run. When ID injectors are used, the fuel table I use as a base pretty much needs to be doubled.

Or if the REQ_FUEL is set incorrectly (still at 11), the car could be flooding. Is this the case?
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:54 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Why would you change the trigger wheel decoder from 4G63 (90-97 miatas) on a 97 miata to the 99-05 decoder?
Because ignorant unwashed masses. Frustration level is inordinately high so crazy things were starting to sound like a good idea. Like drinking mercury to promote health and heal fractures and homeopathic medicine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
I don't have TS installed here, but it appears to be syncing in that composite log when viewed in Excel. Why would you change the trigger decoder? That would prevent it from syncing.
See above.

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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Timing needs to be unlocked when trying to get it to start.
Maybe I fucked that up and read it wrong. My judgement is obviously suspect at this point in light of the above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
But can you confirm the tach in TS is reporting back RPMs during cranking? This is the first logical step. If there's no RPMs in TS, it's not syncing and it will never run.
That's the thing, we were getting RPMs with the 4G63 setting but I haven't touched the car since last week. Again, grasping at straws here in the dark. We may want to mention this to VitaminJ

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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
IF you are getting them, then it's a matter of fine tuning the map. Most likely the fuel. Again, since I dont have TS here I cant see the REQ_Fuel value and the fuel maps, but it probably just doesn't have enough fuel to run. When ID injectors are used, the fuel table I use as a base pretty much needs to be doubled.
REQ_Fuel is currently set at 4.2, so literally double it to 8.4? I was under the assumption the startup map was set for the injectors, I take it this is not the case.

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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Or if the REQ_FUEL is set incorrectly (still at 11), the car could be flooding. Is this the case?
Not the case, see above.

Thanks BrainBrain, I'll see if I can go play with it tonight. Don't wander off to far lest I do something else stupid.
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:58 PM   #8
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I'll have to check what I loaded again.

But it sounds like the MS is seeing/decoding RPMs, therefore it's more than likely sparking, so the next part of the equation is fueling. I'd be toying in this department. Arbitrarily increasing the REQ_FUEL is not a bad idea, so you can inject more fuel during cranking without making other changes.

does this thing just crank and crank and never combust whatsoever? if so, then i'd be more inclinded to think it's not getting enough fuel as well.

otherwise, it's pretty easy to tell when you're over fueling during cranking. youll smell it and your plugs will be wet, and instead of cranking smoothly without anything happening, it'll crank and hesitate cause there's too much clyinder pressure for the starter to keep turning, or you'll get super loud back firings during cranking because all the raw fuel in the exhaust suddenly ignites.

all other sensors reading correctly? ait, clt, afrs, map, etc?
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Old 01-22-2014, 02:37 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
I'll have to check what I loaded again.
Thanks man, even just as a sanity check at this point would help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
But it sounds like the MS is seeing/decoding RPMs, therefore it's more than likely sparking, so the next part of the equation is fueling. I'd be toying in this department. Arbitrarily increasing the REQ_FUEL is not a bad idea, so you can inject more fuel during cranking without making other changes.
Right. As I understand it REQ_FUEL is kinda arbitrary anyway, the correction numbers on the map are what counts. REQ_FUEL is more of a scale thing, correct?

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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
does this thing just crank and crank and never combust whatsoever? if so, then i'd be more inclinded to think it's not getting enough fuel as well.
Yep, cranks and cranks and cranks... after a couple cycles we get a lurch like an ignition event but it just seems to slow things down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
otherwise, it's pretty easy to tell when you're over fueling during cranking. youll smell it and your plugs will be wet, and instead of cranking smoothly without anything happening, it'll crank and hesitate cause there's too much clyinder pressure for the starter to keep turning, or you'll get super loud back firings during cranking because all the raw fuel in the exhaust suddenly ignites.
Plugs and pistons are wet after a while but thats to be expected. We get the hesitation you describe (lurch above) but no backfiring ...yet. That's the problem, I can tell what extreme I'm at: too much or not enough.

I'm also not getting consistent activation from my timing light while cranking, but its not exactly a spring chicken either. Thus the composite log for the ignition.

Quote:
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all other sensors reading correctly? ait, clt, afrs, map, etc?
Everything else looks sane. Checked everything including throwing my MightyVac on the MAP sensor line.
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Old 01-22-2014, 02:48 PM   #10
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Last night when I changed the option from "4G63" to "Miata 99-05".
I was getting a these back fires.. and it did smell like fuel.. but it did sound like it wanted to start.. cranking was actually smoother than any other time we tried it...

EO2k: let me know if your able to come threw for another look at this Ms3x...

thanks again guys for all the help so far!!!
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Old 01-22-2014, 04:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Why would you change the trigger wheel decoder from 4G63 (90-97 miatas) on a 97 miata to the 99-05 decoder?
Because from the posts in this thread:
https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquir...jection-76082/

it sounds like the 96/97 has CMP/CKP sensors very similar, if not identical, to the 99+ car. Also because I was trying to start my MS3x for the first time in a cold garage and it may have affected my cognitive abilities but the car actually started after I made that change in the settings.
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Old 01-22-2014, 05:50 PM   #12
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opened the composite log in TS and it doesn't look right.

the blue trace should be very consistent and it's not, and where its not i can see there was sync loss (red traces).

the 90-97 pattern is 4-2. there should be a consistent 4 blue traces to every 2 green traces.

the 99+ pattern is 4-1/2. One of the cam traces is a quick double trigger.

I think judging by the log, we should pull your unit open and readjust the pots for the crank and cam signals.

What you wanna do it unscrew the two studs on the serial/usb side holding the serial port in. Then unscrew the 4 case screws on the two db37 side.

Slide the board out.

On the green expander board, turn both pots CCW 6 turns. Turn R11 (top one) back 3.

remove the top two studs holds the expander board onto the black side panel.

flip it up out of the way and turn both pots on the mainboard back 12 turns CCW.

Turn R56 (bottom one) back 7 turns.

reassemble. If that doesnt help get a better composite log during cranking, go back and try turning r56 another half turn, rinse, repeat.
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Old 01-23-2014, 10:44 AM   #13
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Yep, I agree with Scott, and we kinda sorta had a similar issue setting mine up.

Protip: don't re-assemble the case until you figure this out cause I had to take apart and re-assemble mine like 6 times when we were diagnosing my no start issue

Also make sure you pick up one of those tiny screwdrivers to turn the pots.

Also when he says "rins and repeat" keep doing that as it might take a couple tries til you get the pots into proper order, took me a while too lol
It got annoying.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:42 PM   #14
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Awesome, thanks gays We really do appreciate the input.

Will play with some pots tonight and see what we get.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:59 PM   #15
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Hell Yeah.... now this is moving in the right direction!!! EO2K, Braineack, 18psi, vitamin j thanks your your input on this!!!!
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:21 PM   #16
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Any chance one of you guys has a "good" log of exactly what we are looking to achieve? Even a link to a thread would be nice. I've been looking and all I'm seeing is people who are also FUBAR, no one really posts when things work correctly
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Old 01-23-2014, 03:14 PM   #17
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A 99-05 will look like this:



that's the 4/2-1 I was talking about.

A 90-97 will have two green spikes per 4 blue:




it should be a very consistent pattern. there should be no red lines, these are just catpures I found using a quick search.
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Old 01-23-2014, 04:21 PM   #18
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Thank you once again Scott, that is exactly what we needed
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Old 01-24-2014, 12:46 AM   #19
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Ok, so we are at the point where the log looks a lot better. We get the little red lines indicating drop out when it first starts cranking but none after that.

I went and chanced REQ_Fuel from 4.2 to 8.4 and then changed the cranking pulse from 250% to about 350%. We have ignition as proven by the backfiring but its not consistent enough to "catch" and get the engine to spin on its own.

It seems a lot happier when given about 5% on TPS when cranking. Before the REQ_Fuel and Crank Pulse change we were in the 18's for AFR now we are back to something more reasonable in the 10's but its still all over the place.

Ready for more feedback. I didn't have to jack with fuel much to get mine started, so this is still pretty new. We'll get a composite and another copy of the tune up here in a sec. Would appreciate some more eyes on this, thanks again all.
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Old 01-24-2014, 12:59 AM   #20
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Ok fellas here is the new composite log and current tune as stated above
any new input would be greatly appreciated..
thanks for looking and all the help guys
Attached Files
File Type: csv 2014-01-23_20.47.18.csv (10.3 KB, 43 views)
File Type: msq JC_CurrentTune.msq (178.1 KB, 37 views)
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