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Old 03-25-2016, 03:43 PM   #1
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Default VVT Swap w/ MS3-Pro & Frank's PCB: no start, please review settings

so I swapped a VVT engine into my 1991 NA and installed a MS3-Pro Module at the same time. Problem is the engine won't start. I've been, for the past weeks, despirately trying to get it running, but whateer I tried was futile. At one point I had it running and showing data in the composite logger, but now it once again it's not even showing any data. Any help, especially reviewing my tunerstudio settings, is appreciated. I'm really losing my mind over that project...

The mechanical side
ECU:
- MS3-Pro Module, installed onto Frank's (WeistfieldMX5's) custom PCB, mounted inside the stock ECU casing

Engine:
- stock 2003 VVT engine with homemade crossover tube and cone filter
- new timing belt, water pump, seals
- stock ignition module
- brand new cam sensor; crank position sensor checked for correct gap (1 mm)
- Spartan2 lambda control

The electrical side
wiring:
- wiring was done according to the definitive VVT swap instructions (thanks BTW!)
- converted to sequential injection by running 2 extra wires from injectors C & D to the corresponding pins at the ECU. All wires have been checked for continuity from the injector plug right up to the corresponding pins on the MS3-Pro module board. Can hear the injectors click upon using injector test mode in Tunerstudio.
- VVT control via additional wires running to free pins at the ECU, using MS3-Pro's PWM 2 pin
- all three wires of the cam and crank angle sensors have continuity right up to the CMP+ and CPS+ pins at the MS3-Pro module. Both sensors have 12V with ignition on

the evolution of non-starting issues
1. installed everything, loaded a 01-05 MSPNP Pro basemap, calibrated TPS, MAP sensor and lambda controller and tried to start. Nothing. Cranks but wouldn't start and wouldn't show anything in the composite logger. No spark too.
2. my suspicion was a fault with the CAS/CPS signal, so I went over the wiring and found a wire had slipped out of its pin. recrimped and soldered it.
3. tried to start again. Hooray, engine started and showed sync in the composite logger. However, it was running VERY rough. As if it was running on two cylinders. Also, AFR was very lean (19!).
4. re-checked the wiring and found injector B wire triggered injector C, C triggered D and D triggered B. D'Oh!
5. corrected that, checked the injector wires for continuity to the corresponding pins at the MS3-Pro. Everything alright now.
6. Tried to start again - nothing. Nothing. Not even CAS and CPS signal in the composite log. It would crank, but not start. Re-checked CAS and CPS for continuity to the MS3-Pro and had no issues whatsoever.

So this is where I'm at. Right now, this is really frustrating (matter of fact it has been for weeks...). I really have no clue why I don't even have a crank signal. I haven't touched the CAS/CPS wiring since the last time when I had a signal but the engine was running rough (presumeably due to the incorrect injector wiring making the injectors trigger in the wrong moment).


So I'm asking you guys: Could somebody of the many knowledgeable folks here please have a look at my ECU settings? I also include a composite log back when the engine was running (roughly). However, right now I can't even record data because I don't get any RPM sync signal.

If I can get confirmation that at least the software side is correct (esp. ignition options, input/output pins,...) I can at least tick one potential off the list.
Attached Files
File Type: msq CurrentTune.msq (237.5 KB, 48 views)
File Type: csv 20160314 CAS-CPS signal but running rough.csv (53.8 KB, 38 views)
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Old 03-25-2016, 03:49 PM   #2
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here's a screenshot of the composite log back when the engine was running for a brief time, just to prove that theoretically both sensors are capable of producing a correct signal.


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VVT Swap w/ MS3-Pro & Frank's PCB: no start, please review settings-80-cas_cps_working_9cbc07224020a9d4320d432de4d11e4583a5f51a.png  
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Old 03-25-2016, 06:34 PM   #3
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1K pull up on cam and crank sensor to 12v or 5v installed?

I just had the same issues as you (well I didn't have the solder issues you had but rather the no start condition) and putting a 1k resistor between the signal wire and the 12v wire at the sensor connector and it fired right up. But you have Frank's board so you have a place for the resistors.

Look at page 36 and 37 of the latest 1.4.0 MS3 Pro manual. I know it doesn't explain why you had it fire off before but since you wires touching everywhere, maybe that caused some condition that allowed it to fire off.

Edit: set the input capture to falling edge.

Last edited by hector; 03-25-2016 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 03-26-2016, 07:22 AM   #4
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Thanks hector, great info on the rising edge/falling edge thing. I *think* I did mess with that when it was running roughly. Will try if it has any effect.

I doubt I need a resistor for two reasons. The first one being that it did read CAS and CPS at one point, and the second being that frank's board is so well made that I'm almost certain the resistors are already there.
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Old 03-26-2016, 08:19 AM   #5
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Franks board has a place for the resistors but you have to put them in. Its a little secion that says CMP and CKP pull ups and has CMP and CKP on one side and 5v or 12v holes to solder the resistors into.

I can't explain why it fired up and you got sync somehow. But I can tell you that it's in the instructions and my car required it.

This is of course if you are using the factory 99-05 cam and crank sensors. If you have some other type of crank sensor or ignition capture, then YMMV.

Edit: just looked at picture of new board. It's in an are that says "pull ups all years" and has CMP and CKP. Did you solder those in? It won't kill you to try and might just solve your problem.
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:34 AM   #6
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Just had a look. I do have the resistors in place. I'm leaning towards misconfiguration in my Tunerstudio settings.
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:57 AM   #7
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if you got that signal above, you have the pull-ups installed. your map shows rising edge, but that composite looks like you should be falling edge.
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Old 03-26-2016, 11:25 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
if you got that signal above, you have the pull-ups installed. your map shows rising edge, but that composite looks like you should be falling edge.
Will try as soon as I get back to my car. I'm currently on easter vacation with the family :(

this stupid social interaction thing is really killing miata quality time...
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Old 03-26-2016, 06:42 PM   #9
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I'm on vacation at the moment as well. Back on wednesday, I'll have a look for a msq.
What version of the board are you using? I have a manual for them that I can send you should you not have it already.
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Old 03-26-2016, 07:35 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestfieldMX5 View Post
I'm on vacation at the moment as well. Back on wednesday, I'll have a look for a msq.
What version of the board are you using? I have a manual for them that I can send you should you not have it already.
thanks Frank, already got the instructions from you (great support BTW!). I'm running your PCB 2.0. As I said, I'm sure I have all the resistors in place and instead I'm having some issues within the msq. Will try "falling edge" when I get back to the car.
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Old 03-30-2016, 05:38 PM   #11
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it lives! Thank you guys, switching to falling edge really rought the engine to life. However, it still runs like $#!t. It starts around AFR 14.5-15, but within seconds my AFR rises to 19.xx (!). So after 10 seconds or so I turned the engine off.

Now I was looking through several settings. What irritated me was the ignition table: isn't the spark for idle wayyy to advanced? 24 deg upon idle???
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VVT Swap w/ MS3-Pro & Frank's PCB: no start, please review settings-spark-table.png  
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Old 03-30-2016, 06:31 PM   #12
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That doesn't look right. Try 10 to 14 at idle.
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Old 03-31-2016, 03:26 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestfieldMX5 View Post
That doesn't look right. Try 10 to 14 at idle.
Yeah, that was my plan. Just wondering why the basemap was way off.
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Old 04-01-2016, 03:50 PM   #14
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it gets even "better". Have a look at the injector timing that came with the map! no wonder it ran like crap.




Braineack, do you mind if I use your injector timing map for starters?
Attached Thumbnails
VVT Swap w/ MS3-Pro & Frank's PCB: no start, please review settings-80-injector_timing_6eb02a957b0554f9417cc073b5583b5b03aa219c.png  
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