Begi Alpha Omega Bow to Me Peasant - Page 11 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Prefabbed Turbo Kits A place to discuss prefabricated turbo kits on the market
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 12-10-2014, 08:07 AM   #201
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,833
Total Cats: 1,786
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
This goes against EVERYTHING that EVERYONE HERE has EVER experienced ON OUR CARS.
I don't think anyone else has actually TRIED to do this on stock injectors is the thing...

Throw some injectors on that kit and that's a pretty potent setup for only 9psi with a chinaturdo.

Regards to 100%DC:
If they were at 100%DC we'd be seeing them running out of fuel at redline. A/F plots I've seen suggest there's still enough fuel up top and it's not leaning out due to too much power and too little fuel delivery.

Lets say you run the setup at 10psi and you start to notice that no matter what you try to do to increase the pulsewidth you go lean at 6700RPM, you know you've hit 100%DC and can no longer supply enough fuel to support the power output.

With that said: Those injectors aren't quite tapped out it seems, but I'd imagine they are pretty close...

Let's find more semantics we can hate on.

FM still sells the Voodoo kit, which runs at 8psi using stock injectors--those ********.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 08:12 AM   #202
Moderator
iTrader: (11)
 
sixshooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 15,654
Total Cats: 1,559
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
You don't know if the car is pinging if you aren't using det cans. BP engines are so rough and agricultural-sounding that it is very difficult to hear pings unaided.
Reposting for emphasis


Quote:
Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
If you can hear them... then **** is REALLY wrong.
Reposting for emphasis


Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
And if you tune on the dyno without det cans or any other means of actually detecting knock, and you simply "listen" for knock from outside the car.....well.........
Reposting for emphasis


Quote:
Originally Posted by turbofan View Post
So, they were DEFINITELY NOT at 100% duty cycle, but you have to imagine that they're not far off?
So the discussions we have had for years regarding stock or other EV1 injector opening and closing times being maxed out at 85% duty cycle are suddenly irrelevant? A manufacturer or even a local tuner delivering a car with zero headroom to compensate for weather or other vehicle variables would be laughed out of town if they were any other company. Can you imagine the lambasting we would give TDR, Nitrodann (sorry Dann), FFS, or anyone else that would come up with something like this? I am a bit bewildered by how this can be considered acceptable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
This goes against EVERYTHING that EVERYONE HERE has EVER experienced ON OUR CARS.
As someone who once experienced maxed out RX7 460cc injectors at ~240whp, I still don't understand where the extra 200cc's are coming from out of this set of stock ~265cc injectors.


Please excuse my incredulity, but I just don't understand. Maybe the problem is me.
sixshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 08:19 AM   #203
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,833
Total Cats: 1,786
Default

You can easily hear a miata pinging on the dyno or while driving.

bolded for emphasis.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 08:49 AM   #204
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (10)
 
Reverant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 5,440
Total Cats: 198
Default

Depends on the exhaust.
Reverant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 08:51 AM   #205
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,833
Total Cats: 1,786
Default

that's what she said?
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 08:54 AM   #206
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 2,638
Total Cats: 25
Default

I agree with brains pinging text above. Infact I think anyone who doesnt either has a screamer pipe on a 45mm gate or is full of ****.
nitrodann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 09:20 AM   #207
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,091
Total Cats: 90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
I agree with brains pinging text above. Infact I think anyone who doesnt either has a screamer pipe on a 45mm gate or is full of ****.
Its not that its hard to hear det, its hard to distinguish mild det from all the other nosies the engine is making without some sort of det cans. Its worse on a car with a stock exhaust though. At least with an aftermarket exhaust I know for sure that marbles in a coffee can noise isnt heat shield rattle.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 09:30 AM   #208
Former Vendor
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 271
Total Cats: 16
Default

Our altitude is 1100 feet.

When the torque curve starts a downhill run to the redline, less air per putt is actually entering the combustion chamber. If the torque falls 10%, the fuel should do so as well, else the system grows 10% richer. Calculate on the implications of that for a while and see what you get.

That's what the air corrector jet is for.

I've not seen an injector stick open due to high %age duty cycle. I have seen many injectors over 700cc/min jam closed due to fuel pressure.

I can't come up with a reason electrically or mechanically that an injector would be damaged by excessive use at or near 100%. Does anyone know whys or wherefores?

The fact that this car did what it appears to have done does not mean we ship systems suggesting use at the same boost. We will trim it down a notch, but clearly remain in excess of 200 bhp on the stock injectors.

corky
Corky Bell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 09:41 AM   #209
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,091
Total Cats: 90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky Bell View Post
When the torque curve starts a downhill run to the redline, less air per putt is actually entering the combustion chamber. If the torque falls 10%, the fuel should do so as well, else the system grows 10% richer. Calculate on the implications of that for a while and see what you get.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 3opmxz.jpg (58.0 KB, 254 views)
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 10:00 AM   #210
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
concealer404's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,460
Total Cats: 782
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twodoor View Post
So, you know they are not at 100%, but you imagine they are not far off of 100%... Which is it? Do you know something or imagine it?

If you know they are not at 100% that means you know what % they are at... doesn't it?

Keith

PS: I know 100% where any new parts I get are not coming from, I imagine that I will be getting them from Flyin' Miata.
Did you get a heatshield that fit? Specifically the one that was coming to you weeks ago?

Inquiring minds need to know.
concealer404 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 10:02 AM   #211
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
concealer404's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,460
Total Cats: 782
Default

How was this thing tuned from the beginning? By having someone watch the exhaust for detonation? Do we even know how much timing it's running?
concealer404 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 10:10 AM   #212
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,174
Total Cats: 2,575
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
You can easily hear a miata pinging on the dyno or while driving, when the car is detonating severely

bolded for emphasis.
fixed for accuracy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
I don't think anyone else has actually TRIED to do this on stock injectors is the thing...
and suddenly, just like that, you forget about samnavy and numerous other people that actually have
Quote:
Let's find more semantics we can hate on.

FM still sells the Voodoo kit, which runs at 8psi using stock injectors--those ********.
you keep referencing FM. it's cute. it's like corky and stephanie back in the day (and even now sometimes) putting others down to look better

1) their "boost creep" issue you linked to was dopples thread where he mated the newer hotside to the older 2560, resulting in creep
2) they don't claim 230whp, and specifically tell people that it is a 180hp system they're selling.

try again. you might want to call corky and stephanie and get pointers on this stuff.

I suggest we delete everything we've said over the past 10 years on this forum, cause obviously laws of this universe, and mathematics, do not apply
because ALPHAOMEGA?

if the injectors aren't at 100, what are they at?
how was it discovered that the pump is "almost tapped out"?
in for 250whp on stock injectors being the "norm" now.

Last edited by 18psi; 12-10-2014 at 11:15 AM.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 10:22 AM   #213
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,091
Total Cats: 90
Default

Guys to halt the hate parade a little. The is a chance, small as it is, that this is for real and I can explain it.

So like I calculated earlier, they must be hitting at or a little below 0.41 BSFC at redline for this to be working, which means peak torque BSFC is for sure below that number. Now thats not as crazy as you would think. The FM dodoo kit that FM sells as a 180whp (call it 200hp crank) kit, if FM is being safe and limits the injectors to 80% duty cycle like I believe keith has said they did that car is also making ~0.40 BSFC at peak power and must be below that number at peak torque. Sit back and have a thought on this. Without a doubt the BEGI kit is going to have better BSFC performance from the more tubular nature of the manifold, external wastegate, and better intercooler. Even if its hitting the same peak power BSFC numbers as the FM kit that puts the car at about 96% injector duty cycle at peak power if I did my math right. Now what I cant explain is how both FM and BEGI seem to be hitting these really low peak power BSFC numbers, but people who arent shops and tuning with an MS seem to fail to even come close.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 10:59 AM   #214
Elite Member
 
DNMakinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Seneca, SC
Posts: 2,698
Total Cats: 267
Default

Here is the FM claim sheet:

Attached Images
File Type: jpg Voodoo.JPG (36.9 KB, 258 views)
DNMakinson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 11:17 AM   #215
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Warrington/Birmingham
Posts: 2,658
Total Cats: 39
Default

Datapoint from me.

Couldn't hit 200flywheel HP with 320cc injectors on a MS1, managed about 195fw/hp at 95%DC.

And for the record, I can't hear light det without detcans. Det I can actually hear is that severe it causes missfires. Anyone who claims they can hear det without detcans must have ears like a bat.

Not sure if Brain is being serious, or just trolling.
richyvrlimited is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 11:21 AM   #216
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,091
Total Cats: 90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by richyvrlimited View Post
Datapoint from me.

Couldn't hit 200flywheel HP with 320cc injectors on a MS1, managed about 195fw/hp at 95%DC.

And for the record, I can't hear light det without detcans. Det I can actually hear is that severe it causes missfires. Anyone who claims they can hear det without detcans must have ears like a bat.

Not sure if Brain is being serious, or just trolling.
Your peak power BSFC is ~0.59 then. Thats on like the bad side of 1980s turbocharging. There was probably a good 10hp that would be pretty easy to find in the tune or other easy setup.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 11:23 AM   #217
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
concealer404's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,460
Total Cats: 782
Default

Hang on Leafy, i'm going to blow your mind.

330cc injectors. Everyone's favorite piece of **** 80s turbo truck motor. Previously ran on a Dynojet, internet math puts this thing at about 285-290whp on a Disneyjet.

What was that about 80s turbocharging?

Attached Images
File Type: jpg MustangDynamometerTest.jpg (97.3 KB, 232 views)
concealer404 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 11:30 AM   #218
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,091
Total Cats: 90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
Hang on Leafy, i'm going to blow your mind.
Waiting on obscene BSFC from F2T content.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 11:32 AM   #219
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
concealer404's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,460
Total Cats: 782
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Waiting on obscene BSFC from F2T content.

You know me too well.

No idea what BSFC or duty cycle was. No way to measure it, stock ECU chipped for boost cut removal only.
concealer404 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 01:25 PM   #220
Elite Member
 
DNMakinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Seneca, SC
Posts: 2,698
Total Cats: 267
Default

For perspective, we all grow and learn, and technologies change. But, I have this trivia question:

Who said this to me on m.net on Aug 8, 2013 (and I am greatful that he did):

"btw, on a 99 with the returnless fuel rail, you'll have a hard time (even with the stock exhaust) providing enough fuel at even 6psi with stock injectors."
DNMakinson is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 57 07-19-2017 05:11 PM
Expected intake temps on the track? tazswing Race Prep 20 10-03-2015 12:04 PM
Back to Stock Part Out!! Turbo Parts, MS2 Enhanced 01-05, Suspension, and MOAR! StratoBlue1109 Miata parts for sale/trade 16 10-02-2015 10:39 AM
Bikini Top -$550 gsyk59 Miata parts for sale/trade 2 09-12-2015 10:22 PM


Tags
corky saves the day, female phallus, i can't fap to this, lol 1.6, progress, talk shit: get job, velocimafftor, ya guys want some cookies

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:21 AM.