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Old 10-09-2015, 09:07 PM   #41
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Not a member but did go on a drive with them several years back.

Nice thing about a MS, or Hydra, is it has no problem following you down whatever upgrade path you chose and you get the benefit of a nice smooth power band up front. You're going to have to do something with the ECU anyway, may as well make it your first stop. Of course pairing that with a turbo replacement will just make it awesome.
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:05 PM   #42
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I have not looked at your products. Do you have a full kit, or is is it up to me to put the list together? I want something that I can do in a couple of weekends without any fab other than trimming, drilling and bolting it in.
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Old 10-10-2015, 02:12 AM   #43
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I am taking preorders right now for a more DIY-oriented setup, but I will be adding individual parts to the basic manifold-turbo-downpipe kit, and the goal is to have a full-fledged and polished kit released in the spring.

It's worth waiting for, IMO. The EFR responds to throttle inputs much more quickly than a comparable Garrett, and it has the potential to make much more power than the closest Garrett competitor (the 2560R).
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Old 10-10-2015, 06:05 PM   #44
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As a fellow EFR 6258 owner here, I can't say enough great things about this turbo. The power potential is perfect for the 1.8, torque builds insanely sooner and more rapidly than a comparable Garrett, and while the snail itself is around $1500, it comes with a wastegate, BOV, and a boost controller all built in. I would be a bit careful with your boost levels with an EFR and the stock internals however.
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Old 10-11-2015, 03:18 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Mazdaspeeder View Post
I would be a bit careful with your boost levels with an EFR and the stock internals however.
Agreed. The 6258 makes a ton of power per pound of boost. You can safely run a low-boost actuator around 7psi, even with a full 3" exhaust, without worrying about boost creep, though.
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Old 10-11-2015, 05:13 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Girz0r View Post
if you can stomach the xede's price, get it without RC injectors and choose a higher quality ev14. Nigelt has a thread on 5.0 mustang injectors that will work. Five-O injectors work as well on xede.
The Xede price from Bell is reasonable when you account for the fact it includes the Xede, the harness, and the injectors. Bell has been shipping EV14 injectors for at least 5 years if you specify the non-rc injectors; my 550's are EV14. The Xede solution draws an enormous amount of scorn and bullshit gets heaped upon it. It is not ideal and not nearly as powerful as a MS, but it works, and I passed OBDII emissions twice with it.

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The 220-230 whp is getting close to the limit of the rods. 250 is the claimed limit, and 220-230 is probably noted for long term reliability.

Basically the rods go at 250, and when you get to 280 or so is when you need to start doing more internal work. Oil pump, etc. The trans is good to 300ish (that one isn't 100% understood) and the diff is good to the limits of the FMII, assuming you don't abuse it (drag race often, clutch dumps, wheel hop).
HP is misleading; torque is what kills rods. For street use you can probably get away with 200 ft/lbs and survive. For track use, anything over 150 and I would be worried. Greddygalant ran a MS on his MSM powertrain, got 235/235 out of the motor, and bent the rods within 4 track days IIRC.
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Old 10-11-2015, 04:02 PM   #47
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I ran ~190wtq through a stock block for a long time before it finally broke a rod, but that was after 20 track days and 160k on the stock longblock, and the other rods were not bent, so IMO the power isn't what broke it. I think you can do 200wtq safely in a track car, and perhaps 220wtq in a street car.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:41 AM   #48
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"Very interested in more info on your A/O kit for MSM. What ECU are you developing it with? Teaser line on your website says ODBII compatible. Are you reflashing the factory unit or ? Looking forward to your update."

The A/O is not locked in on any specific ECU or turbo. You can use whatever you choose.
The reflash can work with up to 500cc/min injectors, and remains compatible with OBDII.

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Old 10-12-2015, 07:56 AM   #49
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"My biggest decision is to keep the factory turbo or dump it. Everything else is kind of independent."

The "joke" of a chinacharger is just another well crafted sleeve bearing turbo, as is the IHI.
The joker is big enough to make some power, but fails with twice the frequency of a Garrett. Joker failures are running about 1 in 100, with Garrett's about 1 in 200. Every china joker failure I've been privvy to examine was actually an assembly error. Wrong size rear bearing.

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Old 10-12-2015, 11:33 AM   #50
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I think the "joke" he refers to is the perceived mismatch between compressor and turbine sizes, and nothing to do necessarily with the quality of the unit.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:29 PM   #51
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Mismatch is #1
#2 is paying $600 for a part that's easily available for $150
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Old 10-13-2015, 05:42 PM   #52
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OK, I am learning a lot from this discussion and my subsequent research on the comments. What kind of budget is needed to do the internal engine work to go to 300 HP? Rods & pistons for sure. Head work? Does anybody O-ring Miata heads or what? When does the head gasket become an issue? I have seen oil system upgrades also mentioned. This is work I would have to have done by an expert. I guess the turbo upgrade eventually leads to the internals, but I don't know how many thousands we are talking about.
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Old 10-13-2015, 06:02 PM   #53
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2500-5000 depending on what you want and level of involvement
not unless you want to
no one needed to thus far. ever.
it doesn't on a 1.8 with arp studs
yes, get BE oil pump to sleep better at night
At least 2 of the vendors here could arrange a "one stop shop" for you where you'd get a built engine and turbo setup from one place
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Old 10-14-2015, 01:43 AM   #54
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I plan to do the following.
Adaptronics ecu but not installed yet.
1000 cc id injectors and DW fuel pump - have these already
Track speed manifold with the smaller efr turbo, their dp and some sort of custom intake piping unless they come up with a pnp solution
Fm catback because I already have it
Fab 9 ic because I already have it
Forged bottom end super tech and eagle - have it but not installed
Stock MSM head with stock cams
Ported stock manifold
Bigger tb. I already have it
Fm clutch and flywheel

Be happy to run 300 whp which is 2x stock more or less and I don't have to worry too much about trans or diff. Might go to taller diff ratio depending on how the car feels. Not looking for a track monster, just a fun street car.

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Old 10-14-2015, 08:48 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodyMSM View Post
OK, I am learning a lot from this discussion and my subsequent research on the comments. What kind of budget is needed to do the internal engine work to go to 300 HP? Rods & pistons for sure. Head work? Does anybody O-ring Miata heads or what? When does the head gasket become an issue? I have seen oil system upgrades also mentioned. This is work I would have to have done by an expert. I guess the turbo upgrade eventually leads to the internals, but I don't know how many thousands we are talking about.
$2500-$5000 for a built motor is about what it will cost at the end of the day. No clue what O-rining a head is, but we don't do it to miata's. Head gaskets generally are not ever an issue, unless you mess up the install. Oil system upgrade would be a BE pump, or an ATI super damper, or 949Racing damper.

Honestly if you get a standalone and get a good tune you can make the stock MSM turbo run well enough to about max out the motor. I would start there and determine if it is enough for you to be happy. Getting into a built motor and larger turbo setup starts to get very expensive, very quickly.
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Old 10-14-2015, 09:48 AM   #56
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O-ringing a head is when you cut oring grooves into the head and block because your head gasket cant handle the boost.
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Old 10-14-2015, 10:06 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
O-ringing a head is when you cut oring grooves into the head and block because your head gasket cant handle the boost.
Ahh interesting. That is definitely something we don't do in the miata world.
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Old 10-14-2015, 10:36 AM   #58
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It's done more on open or semi-open deck blocks and setups that run massive amounts of boost. Those setups tend to also run crazy head studs 1/2" and larger in diameter.

None of this is common on miata's where you're seriously flying past 300whp to the point that most can't handle that power level properly, let alone 400-500+

Miata's are simple. Nothing fancy needed. Easy
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Old 10-16-2015, 09:27 AM   #59
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I disagree on the mismatch. The relative exhaust gas pressure to intake pressure fits in just fine. The turbo is quite good at producing 2000 rpm boost, steady boost to the redline, and 235 rwhp at 9 psi is not too shabby. The cars have been a delight to drive.

With 25 years of turbo Miata experience with IHI, Aerodyne, Garrett, Mitsubishi, and (3, I think)chinas, the Garrett remains my favorite.

So far, I think we've identified three china turbo makers. The one we use also makes parts for the others. Ebay is not our source.

I've not seen a failed Miata head gasket in the same 25 years. No oil pump failures or related stuff. Two cranks, half dozen rods, a few bearings, no pistons, a couple valve guides, no trannies, no diffs, half dozen clutches, and one cracked head.

It is my opinion that one can easily expense one's self into the range of decreasing fun and acquire no real benefits to show.

The places a few bucks can be spent to maintain the fun, in my view, are shedding some btus from the entire system and improving the details of getting the charge air through its path with the least resistance.

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Old 10-16-2015, 11:06 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky Bell View Post
With 25 years of turbo Miata experience with IHI, Aerodyne, Garrett, Mitsubishi, and (3, I think)chinas, the Garrett remains my favorite.
You really need to try out a Borg-Warner EFR 6258. It might be a very pleasant surprise for you.
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