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Old 10-16-2015, 11:24 AM   #61
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You really need to try out a Borg-Warner EFR 6258. It might be a very pleasant surprise for you.
You haven't heard? China chargers are where it's at! LOL this is like a joke. Don't try to convince Corky of anything, he always has to be right and he's already spoken.
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Old 10-17-2015, 08:49 PM   #62
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"are where it's at! LOL this is like a joke. Don't try to convince Corky of anything,"

Sorry sir. I did not mean to sound obnoxious. I thought I said "in my opinion, or something along that line. I also think I said I prefer the Garrett.

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Old 10-21-2015, 01:28 PM   #63
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I guess I am asking what level of skills are needed to:


A. Install the turbo "kit" - assuming a complete package is purchased.


B. Change pistons, rods, oil pump and damper. Upgrade clutch. Injectors and ECU.


C. Any machine work needed, pull the crank and replace bearings, have the rotating stuff balanced, etc.


I think I can handle A. B is something I can get help with, unless machine work is needed or the crank needs removed.


Does the engine need removed, or just change rods and pistons in the chassis? Not that it's a big deal to pull the block and take it to somebody to have the internal work done if you are going that far.


I have a tuner I found with a Dyno that autocrosses a Mazdaspeed. Once the parts are installed, he can help me get it running right.


This would be a winter weekend(s) project for me. I don't want to deal with major fabrication or fitting multiple vendor stuff together that might not fit. Am I expecting to much. I think I can handle the FM kit. Good instructions and a complete package. Are there any others out there?
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Old 10-21-2015, 01:35 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by WoodyMSM View Post
I guess I am asking what level of skills are needed to:


A. Install the turbo "kit" - assuming a complete package is purchased.


B. Change pistons, rods, oil pump and damper. Upgrade clutch. Injectors and ECU.


C. Any machine work needed, pull the crank and replace bearings, have the rotating stuff balanced, etc.


I think I can handle A. B is something I can get help with, unless machine work is needed or the crank needs removed.


Does the engine need removed, or just change rods and pistons in the chassis? Not that it's a big deal to pull the block and take it to somebody to have the internal work done if you are going that far.


I have a tuner I found with a Dyno that autocrosses a Mazdaspeed. Once the parts are installed, he can help me get it running right.


This would be a winter weekend(s) project for me. I don't want to deal with major fabrication or fitting multiple vendor stuff together that might not fit. Am I expecting to much. I think I can handle the FM kit. Good instructions and a complete package. Are there any others out there?
Buy a MSPNP Pro from diyautotune. Install it with a wideband. Install larger injectors. Turn up boost on the stock MSM turbo and enjoy it.

Unless you go the built motor route which will cost you $3000-$5000, the stock MSM turbo can make enough power to blow the stock motor.

Switching to an FM setup or Begi A/O you will still be limited to the power the stock block can handle. You will get better spool and maybe a little more top end, but overall not to much of an upgrade to power wise for a large cost.

Replacing rods and pistons requires work done at a machine shop. It gets expensive very quickly. Unless you really want 300+whp, I would suggest staying with a stock motor for the time being.
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Old 10-23-2015, 09:28 AM   #65
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Good instructions and a complete package are to be assumed. Our habit of shipping in two seperate packages does not help establish the ""complete" notion. Despite four eyeballs, we miss a few.

FM can ship more timely than we can.

While an FM kit will serve you well, take a moment and examine what features and design quality you get from FM relative to the A/O. From chopping into the frame to rubber fluid lines, thermal management, air flow capability to sheer power per psi of boost, it remains my view that FM has not a single feature as well thought out and designed as the corresponding feature in the A/O.

Of course I would think so, I configured it.

I would strongly suggest that most fellows on this forum could examine the current FM and our old design and configure a system better that either one in virtually every conceivable feature. Many have put their efforts where their mouth is and built their own stuff and done a good job of it. With 50 + years of car performance stuff, I think it reasonable that I am also one of those fellows.

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Old 10-23-2015, 09:30 AM   #66
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I think the problem is your kits make too much tq.
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Old 10-23-2015, 12:15 PM   #67
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Corky,


The original purpose of this thread was to gather info on the alternatives to the FMII or Big Enchilada. I am open to options. I didn't get any feedback from anyone with an A-O installed. I respect your knowledge and experience.


I am interested in the A-O and just need more info and maybe some reassurance that it's a winter garage project and not something I need to pay to have installed. Looking forward to further discussions. Maybe this should be a phone conversation?
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Old 10-23-2015, 12:21 PM   #68
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the A/O kit is too new to have much feedback from members here.
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Old 10-23-2015, 01:01 PM   #69
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Didn't know how new the A-O is. Thanks.
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Old 10-23-2015, 01:29 PM   #70
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I'd certainlly rather spend $5,000 on this kit than a particular supercharger kit that was just released that couldnt dream of making the power numbers this kit can support.
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Old 10-26-2015, 01:03 AM   #71
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It is all new stuff. Started shipping about last July.... I think. Perhaps 15 shipped.

Installed another 6 here in SA. So far, so good.

A few changes from the original A/O: revised the CO tube. Insulated the TB inlet tube.
Am making a casting for the compressor inlet when the meter is deleted.
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Old 10-26-2015, 05:15 AM   #72
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Shuiend has given you the correct answer a number of times.

Buy a good ECU (MSPNP-Pro most recommended by those here).

Install larger injectors (you'll need these anyway) and larger intercooler (which you already have) as well as your exhaust.

Turn up the boost.

If you're not happy, build the motor and go from there. The stock MSM turbo setup is not optimal, but it is plenty capable. Unless you just want to throw crazy money at the build....
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Old 10-26-2015, 09:35 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbofan View Post
Shuiend has given you the correct answer a number of times.

Buy a good ECU (MSPNP-Pro most recommended by those here).

Install larger injectors (you'll need these anyway) and larger intercooler (which you already have) as well as your exhaust.

Turn up the boost.

If you're not happy, build the motor and go from there. The stock MSM turbo setup is not optimal, but it is plenty capable. Unless you just want to throw crazy money at the build....
This. He wants to go spend 10 grand on car parts, when spending $1500 will make him happy.
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Old 10-26-2015, 12:14 PM   #74
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I don't want to waste money. My impression was that I at least needed to do intake and exhaust such as the LE to go with the ECU and injectors. Incorrect?


The LE goes for $2k. The MSPNP and injectors is another $1800, or the BE for $4K. The full FMII is $5395 + exhaust.


So, $4K and stock turbo or $6K and get a Garrett. Then the internals can come later if I feel the need.


What's wrong with this math?
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Old 10-26-2015, 12:24 PM   #75
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I don't want to waste money. My impression was that I at least needed to do intake and exhaust such as the LE to go with the ECU and injectors. Incorrect?

The LE goes for $2k. The MSPNP and injectors is another $1800, or the BE for $4K. The full FMII is $5395 + exhaust.

So, $4K and stock turbo or $6K and get a Garrett. Then the internals can come later if I feel the need.

What's wrong with this math?
1. Incorrect. You should replace the ECU as soon as you can, it will make every other mod better. Yes, you will need to tune for the mods. If this is not up your alley and you just want to keep the stock ECU, you might as well not mod the MSM at all.

2. My MS and injectors were around $1,100. I don't know where you're getting your parts from but you're overpaying

You need to do more research before you spend a penny anywhere
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Old 10-26-2015, 12:25 PM   #76
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I'll sell you a MSPNP and injectors for $1500.
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Old 10-26-2015, 12:25 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodyMSM View Post
I don't want to waste money. My impression was that I at least needed to do intake and exhaust such as the LE to go with the ECU and injectors. Incorrect?


The LE goes for $2k. The MSPNP and injectors is another $1800, or the BE for $4K. The full FMII is $5395 + exhaust.


So, $4K and stock turbo or $6K and get a Garrett. Then the internals can come later if I feel the need.


What's wrong with this math?
The FM LE is probably a good bit of overkill. You can source most of the stuff yourself for cheaper.

What we are all trying to say is that you can make the MSM turbo a decent street setup without spending as much as you are. Here is a post that shows what the MSPNP-Pro will do to an MSM.

Start with the MSPNP-Pro and the flow force injectors. Get used to tuning the MS and get the car working well. Then decide if you are happy with the performance, or if you really do need more. If you need more at that time, then look at adding a 3" exhaust, bigger IC, better intake.

Doing the additional things should just about max out what you can make on a stock motor. If you end up not satisfied then you can look into building a motor and changing the complete turbo setup.
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Old 10-26-2015, 12:32 PM   #78
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You shouldn't consider the full FMII, because MS > Hydra.

The given is MSPNP-Pro + Flow Force injectors = $1500

Since you need these two no matter what direction you would go, I would go for these first. Turn up the boost, get a good tune, and see what you think. Get an intercooler for $100 on ebay, and a piping kit for another $100. I'm not sure how the factory intake works on the MSM's, and if that's easy to recreate for cheap. Then you need to find a cheap 3" exhaust. Maybe Artech has a cheaper solution, or maybe you can just go to FM for that. Either way, sourcing your own intercooler solution will be much cheaper than the LE kit.

The bottom line is, the reason that there's little difference between $4k stock turbo and $6k Garrett, is because $1800 is a little overestimation, and the LE is overpriced for what it is. Another good option if you want the Garrett is the FMII no electronics, plus MSPNP Pro and Flow Force injectors. That totals to $4500.
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Old 10-26-2015, 12:33 PM   #79
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Guys,
The guy wants to spend money on a proper setup. He's not trying to ghetto-rig anything like 99% of the silly kids that join these days. Why would we talk him out of it?

If he was like "omg gaiz I wann install powercard + obxR tacoburrito maniford and run ALLOFIT for d0r1fto" he'd need to be hazed.

He's wants to install a good setup, have it tuned, and never touch again.

I'll repeat what I said in response to his PM: get the fm msm upgrade or non-electronics kit. Get proper fueling and engine management of your favorite flavor (or your tuners). Install, have tuned, enjoy.
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Old 10-26-2015, 12:58 PM   #80
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But here is the thing... We aren't trying to talk him out of doing a proper setup. Not at all.

If you do a 3" exhaust, big intercooler, and MSPro, then see how it feels. It might be enough! If it isn't enough, he can reuse ALL those parts as a basis for a full build.

Plus much of this is your fault Vlad. You're the one who raved about your MSM setup after owning several full builds
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