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Old 10-26-2015, 01:02 PM   #81
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Use case is very important. If you are full of mechanical empathy like vlad you might love the MSM settup. greddygallant has been eating stock msm turbos like no other when driven hard on the track.
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Old 10-26-2015, 01:04 PM   #82
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Yeah, I liked it as a street car. I'd haved liked a garrett setup more tho
I think OP would be pleasantly surprised by how much fun a bolt on+tune MSM is.
But MOAR is always BETTAR, right?

PS: yes what aidan said, at 230 it's pretty much at the limit. any more and you become greddygallant. the ihi really doesn't like over 12psi IMO
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Old 10-26-2015, 01:06 PM   #83
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Old 10-26-2015, 01:23 PM   #84
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so not a rotrex?
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Old 10-26-2015, 01:32 PM   #85
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he said power, not torque
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Old 10-26-2015, 01:32 PM   #86
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A/O with a Churbo is best
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Old 10-26-2015, 02:00 PM   #87
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he said power, not torque
TQ is power. Horses are something Joe Perez plays with.
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Old 10-26-2015, 02:03 PM   #88
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right, but the brotrex makes plenty of broniez if you get the big one and spin it fast, just doesn't make them where they really matter for most of us

#AINTCARE
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Old 10-26-2015, 02:06 PM   #89
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I'd rather give FFS my money than run a rotrex.

that says a lot.
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Old 10-26-2015, 02:09 PM   #90
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I'd rather give FFS my money than run a rotrex.

that says a lot.
Have you ever actually driven a Rotrex car?
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Old 10-26-2015, 02:19 PM   #91
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i've driven a miata, and others, with a centrifugal supercharger. I've also (while not exactly the same) tuned my turbo to output just like one by tuning the boost to increase linearly to redline.

Have you ever street driven a miata?
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Old 10-26-2015, 02:19 PM   #92
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Have you ever actually driven a Rotrex car?
No Scott is an elitist who only drives 1.6 cars.
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Old 10-26-2015, 02:25 PM   #93
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dat 1.6 torque doe

I wonder when the brotrex will get knocked off for a chrotrex that has even less torque... the TacoTrex
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Old 10-26-2015, 05:19 PM   #94
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Guys,
The guy wants to spend money on a proper setup. He's not trying to ghetto-rig anything like 99% of the silly kids that join these days. Why would we talk him out of it?

If he was like "omg gaiz I wann install powercard + obxR tacoburrito maniford and run ALLOFIT for d0r1fto" he'd need to be hazed.

He's wants to install a good setup, have it tuned, and never touch again.

I'll repeat what I said in response to his PM: get the fm msm upgrade or non-electronics kit. Get proper fueling and engine management of your favorite flavor (or your tuners). Install, have tuned, enjoy.

I will do the Megasquirt first. That is a given. The tuner I found has no problem with Hydra or MS but he is more familiar with the Hydra. MSPNP seems to have much more support online, so that is the way I plan to go.


I would love to save money and buy all this separately, but I want to spend 2-3 long weekends in the garage doing the upgrades, get it tuned and drive it next summer. I don't want to spend weeks fitting things together from different vendors and then have to fab or return/reorder stuff.


If I still want more power, then more work the next winter. Internals would be the last mods when I go over 230 HP.


I think this is a sensible approach. I started this thread to look for alternatives to just writing a check to FM. Other than the MS PNP, I got no specifics from this thread. Trackspeed's coming kit (not yet out) or BEGI's A-O (still evolving and new to MSM) are higher risk. FM is the most expensive and least risk.


I want to bolt this stuff on and DRIVE it! Not spend months trying to get it to work reliably. I have THOUSANDS of miles of great 2 lane roads to drive but I don't want to debug the setup in some backwater Ozark town in Arkansas.
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Old 10-26-2015, 05:50 PM   #95
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Start with bolt-ons and a tune. I think you will be very happy around 200-220whp, and you can get that safely without replacing the injectors. Get there and see how you like it, I was extremely happy with my 200whpish MSM, and most of my passangers were extremely scared.

Then, IF it's not enough power, you sell the bolt-ons to someone else who just got an MSM and is the same shoes you are in now, and you put the money towards an FM2, A/O, TSE, whatever you want.

Start small and build up. I don't know what your level car experience is, but a Miata doesn't need a ton of power to be fast or fun. My tuner who drives and tunes Miatas up to 400whp+ says that at the end of the day, he feels that around 240whp leaves you with the most balanced turbo miata possible, giving you enough power, but not enough to where it's a total handful to drive.

If you want to set it and forget it and a turbo kit is what you're after, get the FM2, and it will be the a smooth installation. I don't know enough about the TSE kit to say how it will fit. BEGi doesn't have the best reputation for fit and finish and repeatability of parts to be honest, and it's not just me speaking, I think most of the forum would agree.
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Old 10-26-2015, 06:10 PM   #96
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I am leaning toward buying the LE and an MSPNP and don't know what for injectors yet. No ignition upgrade seems to be needed at this level. Install the Megasquirt and tune the base setup, then install the LE. That can all be done this winter, it will fit, and one trip to the tuner (4 hours away) for a weekend will get me in pretty good shape.
Base map will get me started and to the tuner. Is there a base map for the MSPMP with an LE installed and upgraded injectors floating around? If not, one of the guys from the Indy Miata club has this setup. I will check with him.

Thanks to everyone for their comments and patience. I know that "NOOBS" can be a pain. I hope to not be so annoying in the future.
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Old 10-26-2015, 06:18 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by WoodyMSM View Post
I am leaning toward buying the LE and an MSPNP and don't know what for injectors yet. No ignition upgrade seems to be needed at this level. Install the Megasquirt and tune the base setup, then install the LE. That can all be done this winter, it will fit, and one trip to the tuner (4 hours away) for a weekend will get me in pretty good shape.
Base map will get me started and to the tuner. Is there a base map for the MSPMP with an LE installed and upgraded injectors floating around? If not, one of the guys from the Indy Miata club has this setup. I will check with him.

Thanks to everyone for their comments and patience. I know that "NOOBS" can be a pain. I hope to not be so annoying in the future.
Sounds like a plan. And I know you said you don't want to source parts on your own and have it be a pain, but if you buy things piece by piece, you can save a few hundred bucks and all you might need are a few clamps and hoses that might set you back $20. Look at the classifieds. Maybe someone will have a used catback that you'll just need bolts and gaskets for. Perhaps someone has an intake that you can get a few rubber hoses for, maybe some clamps. Downpipe I would buy new, just so you have the peace of mind of having a good catalytic converter in there, not one someone ran E85 with LOL

There's alternatives to the FM intake as well, and remember, a Hydra or MS will eliminate your MAF sensor, so make sure your intake accounts for that. Most FM intakes for the MSM IIRC are set up for a MAF sensor. They have a "Hydra" option that makes it one solid pipe.

LE with an MS will get you to that 200whpish level, where trust me, you will be for quite some time.
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Old 10-27-2015, 05:30 AM   #98
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Brotrex is irrelevant to this discussion, the car is already turbocharged. He can make 235whp/235tq and street drive it for a long time with the stock IHI.

Greddygalant eats IHI's because he drives like Animal from Sesame Street, were Animal to drive. Come to think of it, they have about equal amounts of body hair ...

A megasquirt with injectors and uncorked boost, with no other mods, will transform this car.
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Old 10-27-2015, 09:00 AM   #99
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The MSM intake set up is not Mazda's high point in quality of design. Put a vacuum gauge in the hose into the turbo and you can measure the flow loss of everything upstream.

Atmo has 30 inches of pressure. If the gauge reads 3 inches at stock boost & redline, then 10% of the atmosphere is lost and gone forever. We found 4.5 inches consistently. That drops the effective atmospheric pressure from 14.7 to 12.5. Using the 12.5 as atmo raises the pressure ratio without changing the boost. Thus heat goes up and air flow comes down.

Regarding heat, place a temp gauge on top of the strut tower and measure the temp that FM injests.

A few moons ago we measured the MSM IC eff at 84%. Not actually too bad.

On designing the A/O, our fit consistency was one of the major objectives. I think we accomplished it quite well. Simplicity and adjustability appears to have banished the gremlin.

corky
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Old 10-27-2015, 11:43 AM   #100
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One of the very best upgrades I applied to my '04 MSM was a proper intake. Somewhere floating around are dyno sheets of the same car, on the same rollers, on the same day doing back-to-back runs of stock intake vs aftermarket "CAI". I'm not sure if the "C" was actually correct, but my CARB-approved replacement was worth something nearing 20whp.

I wasn't able to modify exhaust because Communist Republic of California, but a DP + full exhaust is worth easily another 20whp. Add a few more pounds of manifold pressure, get the tune right, and you'll have smiles for miles.
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