EPIC nuts/studs loosening thread (reposting stupid stuff without reading = warning) - Page 15 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 07-10-2009, 10:43 PM   #281
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SS studs may need graphite or moly lube and thus may be incompatible with Resbond.
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Old 07-10-2009, 11:36 PM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
I'm not selling something here, I'm trying to help.
We appreciate it, but we're just saying that your "fix" isn't a fix unless you have multiple hard track sessions under your belt with no failures.

BTW - I've made safety wire fail.
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Old 07-11-2009, 02:38 AM   #283
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You might have trouble getting studs much bigger than that on there - as I said, I had to grind the housing just to get the nuts on.

Good locking nuts are likely more important than locking washers. There's always the bent-tab style (along with wires), the idea being to keep things from spinning. Then even if they stretch, the worst you have is a bit of a leak. But it's a lot harder to stretch the bigger studs.
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Old 07-11-2009, 03:23 PM   #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kotomile View Post
Do you run a gasket between mani and turbo, Splitime?

This is probably completely misguided, and I'll probably be proven wrong in short order, but I just thought of a little theory that I'll run by you engineer types.

So, people say that it's not just vibration which loosens nuts, but also the thermal expansion of the metal. So, in a gasketless connection, there is nothing to compress so the metal simply grows and pushes the nut loose. With a gasket, there's something to compress and the nuts stay put.

Be gentle guys.
I'm lodging my support for this theory. Factory turbo cars don't have this problem. I've never heard of an S13/14/15 Nissan with the problem. All the pics in this thread show no turbine inlet gasket. Seems like that's what everyone does because Keith told them to a long time ago.

All it takes is the cast iron expanding beyond the yield point of the bolt, and it reduces the clamping preload. That's why you have to chase the torque multiple times. The stud is continually stretching. Someone should accurately measure the length of each stud to a thou or half a thou before installing it, then take it out and measure after chasing the torque a couple times. Bet it stretched.
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Old 07-11-2009, 03:28 PM   #285
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Also, if you're changing to M10, make it M10x1.25 so you can use Toyota studs. They are really nice. And the nuts look good, too.

That sounds queer.
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Old 07-11-2009, 04:00 PM   #286
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I have a new Begi-S kit going in sometime soon. Should I resbond the studs and nuts for the first install or heat cycle it a few times without the resbond and then put it on?
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Old 07-11-2009, 04:24 PM   #287
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How do OEMs keep their studs and/or nuts from falling off?

There's millions of factory turbo'd vehicles that aren't experiencing BS like this.

I think you guys are trying to hard. Is there any way we can get data on OEM R&D department proven solutions?
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Old 07-11-2009, 06:19 PM   #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faeflora View Post
How do OEMs keep their studs and/or nuts from falling off?

There's millions of factory turbo'd vehicles that aren't experiencing BS like this.

I think you guys are trying to hard. Is there any way we can get data on OEM R&D department proven solutions?
OEM turbo manifold are usually longer and the junction between the manifold and turbo is firther away from the head and does not heat like a **** as in a miata. Talons, SRT4, and others have a little more runner length. Most aftermarket kits for Hondas have more runner length too.

Even the Mazdaspeed has the turbo a little further away while there are so many good reasons we think it should be on top like Begi and FM does...

Just trying to think differently.
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Old 07-11-2009, 06:28 PM   #289
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Oem turbos loosen when tracked too. The keyword i
s tracked
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Old 07-11-2009, 08:21 PM   #290
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OK well then um how about any turbo engines from pro teams? Maybe someone might have some connections on a GRM forum.
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Old 07-11-2009, 08:40 PM   #291
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Yeah, OEM stuff isn't much tracked. :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolarYellow510 View Post
. Seems like that's what everyone does because Keith told them to a long time ago.
That's a general issue in the miata world. Makes sense since he's right more often than most. But taking anyone's word as gospel is ridiculous.

Quote:
All it takes is the cast iron expanding beyond the yield point of the bolt, and it reduces the clamping preload. That's why you have to chase the torque multiple times. The stud is continually stretching. Someone should accurately measure the length of each stud to a thou or half a thou before installing it, then take it out and measure after chasing the torque a couple times. Bet it stretched.
Here's the thing: Don't stretch the bolt beyond it's yield point. Why do you think larger studs help? Because to hold on what you need to hold on, just put a small torque on the bolt and leave it. That's the answer to the heat cycling. :-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skittles View Post
OEM turbo manifold are usually longer and the junction between the manifold and turbo is firther away from the head and does not heat like a **** as in a miata. Talons, SRT4, and others have a little more runner length. Most aftermarket kits for Hondas have more runner length too.
Part of the reason to keep them short is to keep the heat in - if you made them longer, you'd still want to do what you can to keep the heat in, and then you'd have your same issues back. Why waste the energy leaking heat out?

Then again, you get much more from good flow than not. Long manis tend to crack often, so really, cast is better anyway. :-)
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Old 07-12-2009, 12:54 AM   #292
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I discovered inconel turbo gaskets today. Too bad they're only in Supra sizes:
Twins Turbo Motorsports, Inc. - Inconell T-6 Turbo Gasket

Yes, the turbine housing has an inconel heat shield around it too.
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Old 07-12-2009, 11:23 AM   #293
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what's so great about inconel gaskets? are they better than zero gaskets?
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Old 07-13-2009, 02:35 AM   #294
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I was looking at the wide selection of "locking nuts" on mcmasters website
would anyone recommend any of these?

McMaster-Carr
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Old 07-13-2009, 04:04 AM   #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by railz View Post
I was looking at the wide selection of "locking nuts" on mcmasters website
would anyone recommend any of these?
McMaster-Carr
The OEM exhaust nuts are M10x1.25 distorted thread with flange.

Nut Type Locknuts
Locknut Type Distorted-Thread
Distorted-Thread Style Oval Lock with Flange


I'd choose them in M10x1.5 for the turbo.
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Old 07-13-2009, 09:04 AM   #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by railz View Post
I was looking at the wide selection of "locking nuts" on mcmasters website
would anyone recommend any of these?

McMaster-Carr
The wing-nuts should work best.
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Old 07-13-2009, 11:33 AM   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
The wing-nuts should work best.
seriously, just turn them each lap to tighten.

...

if you're going to use regular nuts, go to an audi dealership and ask for them.
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Old 07-13-2009, 11:39 AM   #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spookyfish View Post
Update: 304 studs and 15mm head flange nuts*. Track day at Spa Francorchamps: studs look fine, better than ever before, but 2 nuts spun off completely and I was making 0.2bar after a number of laps. Should have used Resbond on them or copper coated nuts.
*) This kind:
Another update: turbo is now off the car. Studs look fine, nuts spin freely and studs came out easily. What a difference from the steel studs I had before, DAMN. They would just not move and break off.

You can see stud #3 has the threads flat from where the turbo hung when the nut flew off.

Before, they wouldn't come out and nuts would hardly move. Going to do new studs, and Resbond the hell out of every thread.

I've now got the car to a point where I can remove the turbo without removing or even loosen the manifold. Yay!
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Old 07-13-2009, 11:41 AM   #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
if you're going to use regular nuts, go to an audi dealership and ask for them.
Those are M10x1.25, like the Mazda ones. Unless you got an Audi p/n for M10x1.5
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Old 07-13-2009, 11:48 AM   #300
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My friend's Supra turbo uses gaskets between the turbine flange and the manifold flange... OEM. He beats the **** out of it and hit the dyno the other day, never has any problem w/ loosening nuts/studs. Granted, no trackdays yet, but as far as I know other turbo supras don't run into this problem either.

What if the OEM gaskets (copper?) are there to absorb the heat and expand, and since you guys aren't running them/any, the next quickest means of heat absorption is the studs/nuts.
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