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Old 09-17-2008, 04:42 PM   #41
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JC, competition in the marketplace is always welcome, even sold in limited number, simply the fact that there is another "option" gives people with money to spend a choice... choices are good. You would have a ****-ton more interest in a T2 flanged hi-flow custom setup, but if v-band GT30 is what you're creating, expect demand to be low... I assume you've done a little market analysis and have given the shop a rough estimate of demand?

But to be blunt, we don't know **** about you and you're coming off as a bit of a know-it-all douche. How about you go over to the Meet&Greet forum like all the other NOOBs and introduce yourself. I'm especially interested in your motor build. What ECU are you running? Fuel system? Tranny? Dif? Why don't you start by telling us about your current state of build, then filling in the gaps of the "turbo kit" as things get closer to completion. If we knew those things, perhaps it would lend a little credibility to you as an enthusiast. What do you do for a living, what experience do you have in custom automotive fabrication? A degree in "mechanical design" gives you a decent amount of engineering knowledge, but so far, all I hear is a lot of bullshit inconsistencies and missing pieces of the pie. **** dude, we don't even know what year your car is.

There are a lot of VERY smart people on this forum with serious engineering and mathematics backgrounds... and quite a few people already in the custom Miata turbo fabrication industry who know the market intimately and are very up-to-speed on the demand for individual product. People who have been in the hobby for a long time and seen the posers come and go will tell you straight out if you're in any way fucked up.

And just to show you I'm a good guy, Welcome the board! I know this thread and your eventual completion will be of great interest to the forum. Now, you, Meet&Greet, go.
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Old 09-17-2008, 05:02 PM   #42
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Yeah what samnavy said...hello, welcome, good luck, post pictures when you get them, post numbers, ect...

I see you, weir, and me all coming out with A/C & P/S Mazda BP manifolds at the same time
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Old 09-17-2008, 05:34 PM   #43
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JC, competition in the marketplace is always welcome, even sold in limited number, simply the fact that there is another "option" gives people with money to spend a choice... choices are good. You would have a ****-ton more interest in a T2 flanged hi-flow custom setup, but if v-band GT30 is what you're creating, expect demand to be low... I assume you've done a little market analysis and have given the shop a rough estimate of demand?

But to be blunt, we don't know **** about you and you're coming off as a bit of a know-it-all douche. How about you go over to the Meet&Greet forum like all the other NOOBs and introduce yourself. I'm especially interested in your motor build. What ECU are you running? Fuel system? Tranny? Dif? Why don't you start by telling us about your current state of build, then filling in the gaps of the "turbo kit" as things get closer to completion. If we knew those things, perhaps it would lend a little credibility to you as an enthusiast. What do you do for a living, what experience do you have in custom automotive fabrication? A degree in "mechanical design" gives you a decent amount of engineering knowledge, but so far, all I hear is a lot of bullshit inconsistencies and missing pieces of the pie. **** dude, we don't even know what year your car is.

There are a lot of VERY smart people on this forum with serious engineering and mathematics backgrounds... and quite a few people already in the custom Miata turbo fabrication industry who know the market intimately and are very up-to-speed on the demand for individual product. People who have been in the hobby for a long time and seen the posers come and go will tell you straight out if you're in any way fucked up.

And just to show you I'm a good guy, Welcome the board! I know this thread and your eventual completion will be of great interest to the forum. Now, you, Meet&Greet, go.


Ok well heres the deal, since i personally wont be selling the kit, the credibility should lie with the company whos actually fabricating and selling the kit right? In that case I urge you to check out the website, which again is www.topspeedperformance.net.

As for me, I have a BS in Mech Design from East Carolina University, with a minor in physics. I mainly work as a consultant to larger firms, such as peterbuilt concerning turbocharged diesel engines. I am only 23 years old. I know that is going to be a concern with a lot of you.

I have been working on the miata for the past 7 years, since I was 16 and bought my first miata, with most of my mechanical experience working as a race car mechanic in the Grand Am Cup Series, on Mazda RX8s. The miata is more of a hobby of mine, and starting out I built my first motor for myself, then it transitioned to friends and people i knew. I have built somewhere in the neighborhood of 35 motors, everything from Rotaries to 4cylinders to pushrod V-8s. Most of my experience building motors is with Miatas BP and Acura integras B18.

Once again im basically an outside consultant designing the kit for my own personal vehicle. The guys that own the shop are friends of mine. They will be building and fabricating all the parts, with all the welds guaranteed for life.

Its not as much about credibility as it is about results, which I dont have yet, because it is not finished, the only reason I even posted was to put the information out there, so keep an eye out.

I have not answered any questions as a "know it all douche" and if we were having this conversation face to face you could see that. I dont mean to come off any way, im just trying to answer the questions as thoroughly as possible.

As far as the T2 flanges are concerned, everything they build is made according to order, its a fabrication shop so they can do whatever you need.

My personal experience though is that there are problems with nuts and studs backing out, and people try to fix the problem with safety wire, castle nuts and the like. Personally its just cheap insurance on preventing exhaust leaks, not to mention the install is MUCH easier on the do-it-yourselfer.


Im not going to make any claims or comments or anything like that until its done.

The bottom line: this will be another option for anyone looking for nice parts to put on their turbo car.


So everyone keep an eye out for the build and details post. Im glad to answer any questions about the build, but its pretty far from done so I cant tell you everything.
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Old 09-17-2008, 05:51 PM   #44
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I'm especially interested in your motor build. What ECU are you running? Fuel system? Tranny? Dif? Why don't you start by telling us about your current state of build, then filling in the gaps of the "turbo kit" as things get closer to completion.
On my car ill be running the AEM EGM, which Im pretty familiar with and just like the way it works. Its expensive but worth it in my eyes. They have a wideband that works in conjunction with the EGM, and ill use that to get a base map and put it on the dyno at Top Speed from there. The fuel system is similar to stock, only im running a fuel cell instead of a fuel tank, return style with a 255 lb/hr fuel pump, nomex braided lines and a dual feed fuel rail. Im running 60 lb injectors, but i have NOT decided on what brand yet, I plan on running a 6 speed tranny to start, but i dont think its gonna hold the power so ill probably end up swapping to some tougher internals, pretty sure FM sells a set?

The diff I have currently is the torsen from I think a 94. But again I may end up swapping to a different rear end, not sure how much power it will hold.

Basically all the miata engines I have built so far havent been for 400+ HP cars so i dont have much experience in anything breaking.

Im running an aluminum radiator with a slightly cooler thermostat, will do a coolant reroute if necessary.

Currently the car is sitting in the garage, with a stock motor in. I have the motor built but have not swapped because im trying to check all the fitment issues of the manifold with a stock motor/AC/PS and the like.

Basically as far as ive gotten on the kit is designing the collector, and begun experimenting with different runner lenghts and the such.

The manifold is the only thing holding me back, so once i finalize the design, i can fab up the downpipe and start running charge pipes. I can only work on this project 2 days a week so its coming along slowly. I work 3 days on, 1 day off.
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Old 09-17-2008, 06:27 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by jc_rotor View Post
The problem with 400 or 500 dollars is by the time you buy the flanges, and the tubing, add the time of the cutting of the tubing and pay the welder, you cant justify a 4 or 5 hundred dollar price. I can see 700 being very attainable, though.

Would there be interest in a manifold, downpipe, turbo setup? Manifold, Dp -about- 1100, and turbo depends on what size and options.

I think you all may change your minds when i get it finished and post the dyno, though, and will be asking for the whole kit!
No **** there's interest in just the components. Duh.

I can tell you right now though that 99% of speed shops will build a one off custom manifold for around 700 bucks. So your production piece should be at least 200 cheaper than that. Make 20 manifolds. How much is materials gonna run per manifold? 80 maybe? 100 tops? The rest is labor. If a fab shop is turning out kits, they jig everything and make them a run at a time. Efficiency is up, cost in every manifold goes down the more you make. To me, if you think your manifold will cost 700, that's figuring 500 in labor. Any shop will do a one off at that 500 labor. If you wanna tell me it cost you several hundred just to make one and 700 is a really good price, I don't even wanna hear it.

I'm telling you though: If you make a 500 dollar manifold that is truly NICE you will sell some. Make it for 400 and you will be flooded with sales. I would gear up to make a lot at 400ish myself. I would focus on t2 and t3 based stuff.
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Old 09-17-2008, 07:09 PM   #46
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here's a way to build credibility and get more kits sold:

show the engineering process and results. if you can prove to us (well, your future customers really) that it will perform better than another similar and cheaper model, then you're gonna have it easy.

if you post a picture of something where #1 and #4 point into each other and the wastegate flange is on one runner, we'll come and rip your colon out and make you eat it.

basically everyone has a very strong opinion of what their favorite manifold is for whatever reason but nobody really can give FIRM NUMBERS as to why they think it. If you can, you're way up on the competition. Speaking of competition: make sure we know why you're better!

ok that's all. back to making weird ****.
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Old 09-17-2008, 07:27 PM   #47
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I'm sticking with my AbsurbFlow tubular manifold until I see someone come even close to my torque curve and peak HP with such a small turbo. 250 ain't **** at 10psi when you gotta wait ten minutes to get there with a GT 30 . Like y8s I'm making it at 9psi but I make it almost instantly.
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Old 09-17-2008, 08:39 PM   #48
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On my car ill be running the AEM EGM, which Im pretty familiar with and just like the way it works. Its expensive but worth it in my eyes. They have a wideband that works in conjunction with the EGM,
What's an AEM EGM?
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Old 09-17-2008, 09:01 PM   #49
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I'm sticking with my AbsurbFlow tubular manifold until I see someone come even close to my torque curve and peak HP with such a small turbo. 250 ain't **** at 10psi when you gotta wait ten minutes to get there with a GT 30 . Like y8s I'm making it at 9psi but I make it almost instantly.
+1. Thats why I got my AbsurbFlow tubular manifold. And I'm pretty sure it cost me less than 700. TURBOTIM FTMFW!
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:49 PM   #50
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What's an AEM EGM?
Its a plug and play stand alone ECU made by AEM. Runs from 1500-2000 dollars but no wiring unless you run new sensors, EG map instead of maf, or knock sensor on earlier models that dont have them.

I heard that the plug and play model has been discontinued, but you can still wire up the universal the old fashioned way.
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:14 AM   #51
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No **** there's interest in just the components. Duh.

I can tell you right now though that 99% of speed shops will build a one off custom manifold for around 700 bucks. So your production piece should be at least 200 cheaper than that. Make 20 manifolds. How much is materials gonna run per manifold? 80 maybe? 100 tops? The rest is labor. If a fab shop is turning out kits, they jig everything and make them a run at a time. Efficiency is up, cost in every manifold goes down the more you make. To me, if you think your manifold will cost 700, that's figuring 500 in labor. Any shop will do a one off at that 500 labor. If you wanna tell me it cost you several hundred just to make one and 700 is a really good price, I don't even wanna hear it.

I'm telling you though: If you make a 500 dollar manifold that is truly NICE you will sell some. Make it for 400 and you will be flooded with sales. I would gear up to make a lot at 400ish myself. I would focus on t2 and t3 based stuff.


Do these shops use 304 schedule 10 stainless steel? Do you know the difference? basically the runners we use are 1 1/2 inch inside diameter and 1 7/8" outside diameter, thats over a 1/4 inch thick. Do they guarantee their welds for life? Do they maximize flow? Im not trying to be an *** but im saying there is at least 300 dollars in materials, and thats leaving out the flanges/v-bands.

I can see something like a group-buy at 500 a piece, with a min of 10. But they cant invest the time and material in 25 manifolds at a time just to have them sit on the shelves and no one buy them, even if they are only 500 dollars.


Its really not up to me, because all im investing is time.
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:38 AM   #52
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Do these shops use 304 schedule 10 stainless steel? Do you know the difference? basically the runners we use are 1 1/2 inch inside diameter and 1 7/8" outside diameter, thats over a 1/4 inch thick. Do they guarantee their welds for life? Do they maximize flow? Im not trying to be an *** but im saying there is at least 300 dollars in materials, and thats leaving out the flanges/v-bands.

I can see something like a group-buy at 500 a piece, with a min of 10. But they cant invest the time and material in 25 manifolds at a time just to have them sit on the shelves and no one buy them, even if they are only 500 dollars.


Its really not up to me, because all im investing is time.
The shops will use whatever I want. I'm the customer. They have to satisfy me to take my money. Mild steel will work. Schedule 40 would be better than Schedule 10 IMO.

So it's 1 7/8" OD, 1.5" ID, and that's over 1/4" thick? I don't understand, please elaborate. I'm no expert with pipe. All I know is 1.5" schedule 10 is like .11 thick and schedule 40 is more like .14. But neither is 1/4" thick.

How the hell is there 300 in materials before flanges and V bands? ****, how much is there in a manifold when you don't count the flanges? Pipe and filler. Anything else? Are you triple plating them in gold? Buy pipe in bulk. Use mild steel. Hell, retail at a local pipe and supply company is like 5 bucks a piece for 1 1/2" butt welds. Retail price for BP flanges is 22 bucks. But since you'll be buying in bulk these places will certainly cut you a break. Give me 300 dollars and I'll buy enough materials to make 2 manifolds and that's paying retail price and shipping cost.

Not trying to be an *** either, but I'm not convinced it cost that much in materials alone. SS is more expensive, but it's not that high, and it's not needed either. You do whatever you want though. Make a nice manifold. Make the best there's ever been, and make it the most expensive on the market. You'll feel good that yours is the best. But whoever figures out how to make the 400-500 dollar nice manifolds is the guy that will be laughing all the way to the bank.
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:09 AM   #53
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Here are the dimensional specs for stainless 304 Sch 10 pipe in the size in question: http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant...d=57&top_cat=1 (wall is .0109" nom.)

And sch 40: http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant...d=58&top_cat=1 (wall is .0145" nom.)

Perhaps the OP meant sch 80? It has a nominal wall thickness of .2" in the 1.5" size. Either that, or we're talking about something other than 304 pipe.

Price-wise, I can maybe, almost, sort-of believe the $300 quote, if they're buying pre-formed mandrel bends. Having not seen this thing yet, let's assume that it's every bit as radical as Keith's spectacularly twistastic targa header. Say he requires, on average, four bends per runner. (I'll assume they're not being clever and using donuts.) Assuming they're buying in bulk from a Chinese importer, they're probably shelling out $12-$13 per bend, and that puts them in the ~$200 range. It's close anyway. Of course, this is for standard 18ga stuff, not for 1/4" thick pipe.

Now that I think about it, how the hell do you bend pipe with a 1/4" wall?
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:11 AM   #54
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Tim comes close at $550 for
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:13 AM   #55
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Ahh, I can't wait to send Tim a check for an Absurd Flow mani/DP combo.
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:37 AM   #56
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haha...lets all take a sec and laugh at me...its not a 1/4 thick...i didnt use my brain, its more like 1/10" to 1/8". And you cant bend it, have to use preformed bends. Its T304 stainless, its like 5-10$ per bend depending on the length and radius. The reason to use stainless is because of its thermal properties, much less prone to cracking. if you want a mild steel tubular manifold thats fine by me, but no one is going to warranty the welds on it, and its going to look like ****. Theres no doubt you can build a mild steel manifold for 400 bucks. But its not going to last half as long so why not invest the extra and never have to worry about it again.
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:37 AM   #57
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I hate shitting on other people's fab posts. I hope this doesn't sound like a "shitting"...I do hope you the best on your build.

$300 for materials not including flanges? So that's $300 for the bends and whatever straight tubing? Schedule 10 304SS 1.5" pipe large radius 90's are currently $8.26+shipping from McMaster. So $300/~$9 is like 30 bends. Damn. If you're using 30 bends...you better charge a lot more than $700 cause that's a hell of a lotta time welding.

I love McMaster. $8.26, Wall thickness on Schedule 10 1.5" pipe is ~.109", but I have found in real life these pieces have a wide tolerance.


~$45 for these tight radius guys...but of course tight radius isn't good for flow.


Schedule 40 mild steel, currently $13.25 for large radius and $21.26 for the small radius. For those of us who know Math these have only .145" wall thickness nominal:




And for reference, Pipe:
304SS Sch. 10 $19.04 for 1 foot:


Mild steel Sch. 40, $9.47/ft, #7750K115. Sorry no pic.

Last edited by TurboTim; 09-18-2008 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:41 AM   #58
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i can get some close up pics of the focus and srt 4 manifolds so you guys can see what im talking about here. Ill take a picture of my collector too.
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:45 AM   #59
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I hate shitting on other people's fab posts. I hope this doesn't sound like a "shitting"...

$300 for materials not including flanges? So that's $300 for the bends and whatever straight tubing? Schedule 10 304SS 1.5" pipe large radius 90's are currently $8.26+shipping from McMaster. So $300/~$9 is like 30 bends. Damn. If you're using 30 bends...you better charge a lot more than $700 cause that's a hell of a lotta time welding.

I love McMaster. Wall thickness on Schedule 10 1.5" pipe is ~.109", but I have found in real life these pieces have a wide tolerance.
300 includes the manifold to block flange, which can get very expensive, not to mention the waste material from being cut out on the water jet, which top speed doesnt have so they have to pay someone else to do it currently. It just doesnt include the T2/T3/V-band on the turbo side.
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:47 AM   #60
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didnt you see my post about 1/10-1/8"??
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