New Turbo Kit in the works. - Page 4 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Prefabbed Turbo Kits A place to discuss prefabricated turbo kits on the market
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 09-18-2008, 09:51 AM   #61
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
TurboTim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chesterfield, NJ
Posts: 6,482
Total Cats: 248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jc_rotor View Post
Its a plug and play stand alone ECU made by AEM. Runs from 1500-2000 dollars but no wiring unless you run new sensors, EG map instead of maf, or knock sensor on earlier models that dont have them.

I heard that the plug and play model has been discontinued, but you can still wire up the universal the old fashioned way.
Oh I was wondering what the AEM EGM was too. Most people around here call it the AEM EMS. I run this ECU and love it.

http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=62
TurboTim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 09:55 AM   #62
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
TurboTim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chesterfield, NJ
Posts: 6,482
Total Cats: 248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jc_rotor View Post
300 includes the manifold to block flange, which can get very expensive, not to mention the waste material from being cut out on the water jet, which top speed doesnt have so they have to pay someone else to do it currently. It just doesnt include the T2/T3/V-band on the turbo side.
Oh, ok then. Yeah the manifold to block flange is by far the largest expense with my manifolds. I assume you are using a stainless flange here? Is your fab shop making their own (I assume this because you mentioned a waterjet)? If so, can you get a price on this flange? Weirtec's is around $100 for 304ss, I think .375 thick. I haven't ordered one yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jc_rotor View Post
didnt you see my post about 1/10-1/8"??
No sorry, that post wasn't there when I stared my reply. I gotcha.
TurboTim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 10:35 AM   #63
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,833
Total Cats: 1,786
Default

. . .
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1219590799.jpg (214.8 KB, 171 views)
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 11:16 AM   #64
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 19,038
Total Cats: 406
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jc_rotor View Post
Its T304 stainless, its like 5-10$ per bend depending on the length and radius. The reason to use stainless is because of its thermal properties, much less prone to cracking. if you want a mild steel tubular manifold thats fine by me, but no one is going to warranty the welds on it, and its going to look like ****. Theres no doubt you can build a mild steel manifold for 400 bucks. But its not going to last half as long so why not invest the extra and never have to worry about it again.
304 stainless has a 50% higher coefficient of thermal expansion than, say 1010 steel. I'm dubious. I have a mild steel manifold that's got like 40,000 miles on it and is 4-5 yrs old.

This is what I was saying earlier about "proof". If you can show actual data that proves 304 outperforms in cracking, awesome. All you need is a cylinder head and a bunch of heat. Like a four-nozzle oxy acetylene torch pointed out the exhaust ports.

And I thought most manifold makers were switching to 316 because it was less prone to cracking anyway... or was that 416? Or was that inconel.
y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 11:22 AM   #65
Elite Member
iTrader: (21)
 
paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Point Pleasant, NJ
Posts: 2,957
Total Cats: 2
Default

inconel FTW! Tim, when you gonna start fabricating with that?
paul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 12:00 PM   #66
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,796
Total Cats: 247
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jc_rotor View Post
The reason to use stainless is because of its thermal properties, much less prone to cracking. if you want a mild steel tubular manifold thats fine by me, but no one is going to warranty the welds on it, and its going to look like ****. Theres no doubt you can build a mild steel manifold for 400 bucks. But its not going to last half as long so why not invest the extra and never have to worry about it again.
I've always heard SS is more prone to cracking. That's my experience anyways.

Why wouldn't you warranty the welds, and why would they look like ****? Do you have a competent welder?

If "theres no doubt you can build a mild steel manifold for 400 bucks", then why don't you? You'd have people standing in line.

Why isn't it going to last? You think it's more prone to cracking? Why is that? Or is it more prone to cracking because your welder can't weld mild steel for some reason?

I'd rather pay 400 for a manifold that will last me 5 years than 700 for a manifold that will last me 5 years. Whether it's shiny or not doesn't mean much to me.
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 12:09 PM   #67
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
TurboTim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chesterfield, NJ
Posts: 6,482
Total Cats: 248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
304 stainless has a 50% higher coefficient of thermal expansion than, say 1010 steel. I'm dubious. I have a mild steel manifold that's got like 40,000 miles on it and is 4-5 yrs old.

This is what I was saying earlier about "proof". If you can show actual data that proves 304 outperforms in cracking, awesome. All you need is a cylinder head and a bunch of heat. Like a four-nozzle oxy acetylene torch pointed out the exhaust ports.

And I thought most manifold makers were switching to 316 because it was less prone to cracking anyway... or was that 416? Or was that inconel.
I like 304ss but do not have a good reason other than it's easily available. All things being equal, I too would think SS would crack more easily due to the much higher coefficient of thermal expansion. This is sorta a guess, I am not an "expert". Stainless grows a BUNCH when it gets warm.

Stainless has a lower thermal conductivity, that'd help keep things under the hood cool and the heat in the pipe. That's good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul View Post
inconel FTW! Tim, when you gonna start fabricating with that?
I did a few things with inconel in a past life, but I have never welded it. Besides you cheap asses wouldn't pay for it.
TurboTim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 01:13 PM   #68
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 79
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
I've always heard SS is more prone to cracking. That's my experience anyways.

Why wouldn't you warranty the welds, and why would they look like ****? Do you have a competent welder?

If "theres no doubt you can build a mild steel manifold for 400 bucks", then why don't you? You'd have people standing in line.

Why isn't it going to last? You think it's more prone to cracking? Why is that? Or is it more prone to cracking because your welder can't weld mild steel for some reason?

I'd rather pay 400 for a manifold that will last me 5 years than 700 for a manifold that will last me 5 years. Whether it's shiny or not doesn't mean much to me.

No its simply a matter of stainless steel manifolds and welds wont rust. Your exhaust is going to have condensation in it. And stainless is less prone to cracking because it expands. If your welds are crappy then yeah theyll crack but its the same principle as expansion joints in buildings, if your materials are expanding at different rates, theres going to be cracking, but since the SS distributes the heat evenly, it all expands together. It makes sense if you think about it. Thats why log manifolds crack when they have NO welds, the manifold is expanding at different rates and its not distributing the stress evenly.

anyway they say a picture is worth a thousand words. So im going to post some pictures.
jc_rotor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 01:28 PM   #69
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 79
Total Cats: 0
Default

09-18-08_1034.jpg

Here you can see an incomplete B18 manifold that Top Speed is working on.

09-18-08_1035.jpg

Here you can see how the oval shape of the port on the B18 is transitioned to the circular opening of the tube. (These flanges cost $85 a piece)


09-18-08_1038.jpg

This is an inside view of the collectors that I helped design. Its not just 4 pipes welded together as you can see and I spent a long time getting this right.

09-18-08_1039.jpg
Another view of the same collector, as you can see, the transition from 4 to 1 is very gradual, which is important because you dont want the exhaust pulses to collide and cause turbulence before the turbine. You want the exhaust gases to merge seamlessly into one continuous flow with a constant rising rate of velocity.

09-18-08_1040.jpg

This is a picture of the equal length manifold installed on the B18 Honda Motor. This car puts down 470HP at 18 psi.

09-18-08_1043.jpg

Finally this is a picture of a BMW M3 that the guys at Top Speed are doing a custom turbo kit on. You can see the stainless exhaust turbine housing, and the nomex braided oil and water lines. The nomex lines offer just as much as the SS lines, but weigh about half as much per foot.
jc_rotor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 01:28 PM   #70
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 19,038
Total Cats: 406
Default

stainless has a lower thermal conductivity... that means it DOESN'T distribute the heat as well as mild.

and yeah so what stainless wont rust? lots of cars run for decades with rust on the manifold.
y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 01:32 PM   #71
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 79
Total Cats: 0
Default

Wanted you guys to also see the difference in spacing issues with flanges as opposed to v-band clamps.

09-18-08_1047.jpg

Two waste gates, 35 or 38mm (not sure) on the left with the flange, 44 on the right with the v-band. The 44mm takes up the same space, no gaskets, no bolts.

09-18-08_1048.jpg

Again, from a different angle.
jc_rotor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 01:36 PM   #72
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 79
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
stainless has a lower thermal conductivity... that means it DOESN'T distribute the heat as well as mild.

and yeah so what stainless wont rust? lots of cars run for decades with rust on the manifold.
and if pieces of that rust go through the exhaust, so what?, but if it goes through your 1000 dollar turbo, much bigger deal.

Stainless doesnt distribute the heat from the inside to the outside, but if it heats up, it all expands at the same rate.

Theyre so sure it WONT crack, if it does, take it off, ship it to them, they fix it for free, and ship it back.

You cant really argue with a guarantee like that.
jc_rotor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 01:38 PM   #73
Junior Member
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Overland Park, KS
Posts: 395
Total Cats: 6
Default

Stickituitiveness, jc_rotor's got it.
MazDilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 01:38 PM   #74
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 373
Total Cats: 36
Default

TurboTim--screw McBastard. You're paying too much.

Go to acestainless.com.
JKav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 01:54 PM   #75
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,833
Total Cats: 1,786
Default

This thread needs less talk and more production....


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Intake_010.jpg (487.0 KB, 208 views)
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 01:59 PM   #76
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 79
Total Cats: 0
Default

Look guys, I dont do exactly this for a living, my degree helps me from an engineering standpoint, but the guys at Top Speed are the experts at fabrication. I have experience with the miata so they wanted my help in helping them design it.

I was just providing the info for the benefit of everyone here, and honestly this project is more about my build than anything. Like i said im designing the manifold for my turbo 1.8, after I get done and you guys see the results and like them, Top Speed will be able to easily reproduce the final design. But if you want something different, they can do pretty much anthing you want.

Im still open to suggestions, but keep in mind you guys can order whatever you want as well. This isnt my company and im not making profit off it.

Im just going to go ahead and tell you though, ive been there for the ordering of materials, the expenses of the welding gases and welding rods, how many bends it takes and how much they cost, and as a 3rd party observer, not as someone that is going to benefit from this, they have at least 300 in each manifold without labor.
jc_rotor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 02:17 PM   #77
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
TurboTim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chesterfield, NJ
Posts: 6,482
Total Cats: 248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKav View Post
TurboTim--screw McBastard. You're paying too much.

Go to acestainless.com.
Hmm true...I have acestainless in my favorites but never bought anything from them mostly because McMaster is on my commute to work. Not having to pay shipping on a manifold's worth of weld elbows saves a decent amount. But I do have to pay tax....hmmmm

Thanks for the heads up again. I will consider them more now.
TurboTim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 02:26 PM   #78
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
TurboTim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chesterfield, NJ
Posts: 6,482
Total Cats: 248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
stainless has a lower thermal conductivity... that means it DOESN'T distribute the heat as well as mild.

and yeah so what stainless wont rust? lots of cars run for decades with rust on the manifold.
Due to the lower thermal conductivity, the exhaust temp at the turbo is closer to the temp at the head. If someone told me that because of this the exhaust gas temp across the primary tubes is closer to being the same, then the temperature across the manifold is more even, and therefore more even stress distribution, I could possibly buy that.

You could ceramic coat your mild steel and say the same thing then.

BUT there's a lot more that goes into it than this. Joint design, weld quality, cross section, surface area, underhood air flow, EGT across cylinders, and a thousand other factors affect this.

The specific heat's of mild and 304ss are very similar so that shouldn't matter much.

Stainless is not very stain-less at the temperatures your manifold should be seeing.

Last edited by TurboTim; 09-18-2008 at 02:47 PM.
TurboTim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 02:58 PM   #79
Supporting Vendor
 
Matt Cramer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,264
Total Cats: 51
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Now that I think about it, how the hell do you bend pipe with a 1/4" wall?
You don't - pipe elbows are usually cast with the bends in them.
Matt Cramer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 03:00 PM   #80
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 79
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTim View Post
Due to the lower thermal conductivity, the exhaust temp at the turbo is closer to the temp at the head. If someone told me that because of this the exhaust gas temp across the primary tubes is closer to being the same, then the temperature across the manifold is more even, and therefore more even stress distribution, I could possibly buy that.

You could ceramic coat your mild steel and say the same thing then.

BUT there's a lot more that goes into it than this. Joint design, weld quality, cross section, surface area, underhood air flow, EGT across cylinders, and a thousand other factors affect this.

The specific heat's of mild and 304ss are very similar so that shouldn't matter much.

Stainless is not very stain-less at the temperatures your manifold should be seeing.

Thats what I was trying to get across, there is more even stress distribution.

Honestly though by the time you get it ceramic coated its cheaper just to build it out of stainless...I dont know much about ceramic coating either, id be worried about how its applied, and how well it adheres to the mild steel (possible chipping??)...but again I dont know much about it so I cant say.

And also, the turbo im using has a SS exhaust turbine housing, so it makes sense to use stainless for the manifold and downpipe as well.
jc_rotor is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Need help - Stock Balancer and Fastforward overlay pulleys Frank_and_Beans Supercharger Discussion 13 09-12-2016 09:17 PM
LucaCarMods's Boosted Dutch Miata Build! LucaCarMods Build Threads 11 02-14-2016 07:13 AM
Koni 1150 Coilover Kit drumman83 Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 2 09-25-2015 08:03 PM
WTB 90-97 miata low profile headlight kit DonPlatt WTB 0 09-25-2015 03:57 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:18 AM.