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Old 05-09-2015, 01:33 PM   #221
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Haha

Those spec guys!

you and the PO of my miata are a special breed. Why not run a thermostat? Do you just like accelerated engine wear?
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Old 05-09-2015, 01:34 PM   #222
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And the fast SM teams rebuild their engines less than every 50 operating hours.
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Old 05-09-2015, 01:42 PM   #223
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always allowed to " warm up " to the operating zone , in the paddock, before going on track
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Old 05-09-2015, 01:47 PM   #224
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You are full of ****, no car is going to "warm up" with no thermostat.
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Old 05-09-2015, 03:39 PM   #225
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I use a honda heater valve on the line between the heater core and mixing manifold, leaving it open when warming the engine up and when i need the heater or defrost and closing it for track days etc. plan on installing a cable to control it without opening the hood.
It may work well without a heater coore just to get the engine warmed up and can be closed for track use.
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Old 05-09-2015, 04:18 PM   #226
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no xxxx, if its just standing still it really will " warm up "
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Old 05-09-2015, 07:57 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ooldguy View Post
I've run an FMII with Hydra, for 12 - 15 track days / HSAX's a year for the past two seasons


No t-stat, spec Miata rad with a 3" angled spoiler under rad = no heat issues running 4 - 30 min sessions @ 90 deg
Your lap times compared to SM record on same track?
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Old 05-09-2015, 09:08 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ooldguy View Post
was told by a fast spec Miata builder that none of them run one
Did this SM builder happen to build SM engines?

If so, did it ever cross your mind that a person who builds engines for $$$ would tend to make recommendations that will result in an engine rebuild?

Also, just because one class of racecar does something, does not mean that it should apply to everyone, even if it is the same model of car, and even the same track.

This will keep you from overheating, but does not mean it is anywhere near an optimal solution. Have you done a proper reroute?
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Old 05-10-2015, 03:49 AM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Your lap times compared to SM record on same track?
^^

This. Anybody can run on track all day long, if they're slow, and aren't working the car. Brakes last, engine temps stay cool, it's amazing!
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Old 05-10-2015, 12:19 PM   #230
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FYI - data log'd, consistently not hotter than 170 deg


( not intentionally attempting to start anything, but - )




45+ years of W2W and Hi-Speed open track events


15 years W2W with MCSCC ( Midwestern Council of Sports Car Clubs )


5 years Road Racing karts with IKF and WKA


20+ years of Hi-Speed open track events





I've run at the following tracks :





Circuit of the Americas


Barber Motorsports Park


Blackhawk Farms


Road America


Autobahn Country Club ( North, South and Full )


Grattan


Mid-Ohio


Putnam Park


VIR


Watkins Glen


Road Atlanta


Sebring


Iowa Speedway


Milwaukee Mile


Mid-America ( and more if needed )








Past 15 years :





MCSCC Instructor


NASA Instructor


'96 MCSCC CS Champ / class track record


'97 MCSCC DS Champ


'98 MCSCC BS Champ


'99 MCSCC BS Champ / class track record


'00 MCSCC BP Champ


'01 MCSCC AS Champ


'02 MCSCC AS Champ


'03 MCSCC AS Champ


'04 MCSCC AP Champ / class track record


'05 MCSCC AM MM class track record


'05 MCSCC YS class track record


'05 NASA TTD Midwest Region Champ


'06 MCSCC XP Champ


'07 MCSCC XP Champ / class track record


'08 MCSCC XS Champ / class track record





'09 MCSCC SM Champ / class track record


'10 MCSCC AS Champ / class track record


'13 MCSCC DP Champ / class track record


14 MCSCC DM class track records

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Old 05-10-2015, 12:25 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ooldguy View Post
( not intentionally attempting to start anything, but - )
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Old 05-10-2015, 12:30 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deezums View Post
You are full of ****, no car is going to "warm up" with no thermostat.
It might warm up. It probably won't stay warm, though.

My 95 had that stupid as **** Begi "Racer Reroute" on it which meant "thermostat bypass." It would hit operating temp at idle. Eventually.

First time you got on the highway, that bitch was nose-diving to 140F or colder, though.
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Old 05-10-2015, 12:36 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ooldguy View Post
FYI - data log'd, consistently not hotter than 170 deg


( not intentionally attempting to start anything bur)
Thats neat. Please post your lap times from the last 6 months compared to the current SM record on the same track. the reason we all asked is that the data points you provided are incomplete without load. Merely statng "I am really fast" doesn't cover it. At least not on this forum. The rest of us have found that not installing a reroute and pulling the thermostat works only under a limited range of conditions and is generally not a good long-term solution.

In short if you want your data to be useful or taken seriously on this particular forum you will have to produce a lap time, weather and date to complete the data. Thanks for contibuting, much appreciated.

Last edited by emilio700; 05-10-2015 at 12:38 PM. Reason: speling
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Old 05-10-2015, 03:36 PM   #234
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just so you all don't have to believe me ( and there's isn't any reason to ! )


you can check out the prior 15 years of results at mcscc.org


or


Welcome to the Midwestern Council Family of Sports Car Clubs


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Old 05-10-2015, 04:42 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ooldguy View Post
just so you all don't have to believe me ( and there's isn't any reason to ! )


you can check out the prior 15 years of results at mcscc.org


or


Welcome to the Midwestern Council Family of Sports Car Clubs

No, we're just all lazy and don't really care about the resume. You seem to be dodging the question of posting a current lap time.

The only reason you are being pestered for it is because people have posted before that they have made a modification which is known not to work and claimed it worked. When we dug in and found out what their lap times were, the claim was invalidated. So if you have lap times post them otherwise none of us are really interested.

For what it's worth, the only fast turbo track Miata with ghetto cooling mods that has been known to survive was Keith Verges in Texas. Those cars were kind of an aerodynamic mess and not particularly efficient but they did survive. Oh yes, Keith posted lap times.
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Old 05-10-2015, 05:13 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ooldguy View Post
just so you all don't have to believe me ( and there's isn't any reason to ! )
You're gonna find out real quick that on this forum you gotta post actual data/testing results to be taken seriously.
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Old 05-10-2015, 07:30 PM   #237
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Got bored. Dug

Not sure if I'm reading all this correctly.

SM record: 0:01:21.999

SCCA Track Records | Blackhawk Farms Raceway

One of his times: 1:22.170

http://www.mcscc.org/results/2014/ax...sults.Rev1.pdf
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Old 05-11-2015, 05:54 AM   #238
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Why all the bashing? This is the Race Prep section... isn't it good to get differing ideas on the forum?

If the car is a track car only, why run a thermostat? I see a thermostat as another point of failure and an unnecessary restriction point. I don't run a coolant nor an oil thermostat. If your sitting stationary what does the thermostat actually do to help speed up warming the system? There is the same thermal energy going into the block and very low heat loss through the radiator. The only time a thermostat makes any difference is when the car is at cruise which a track car is rarely doing. Under WoT I want my cooling system to working optimally with very rapid circulation so that there is less temperature differential across the engine.

My car is a time attack / sprint car with a built NA8 engine. It doesn't run a thermostat but the cooling system is balanced by a half width Honda radiator. The engine gets warmed up on the trailer and in the pits. It then gets a single warmup lap before 5 or so full speed runs with a cooldown at the end.

The logs show the engine gets up to temp quickly, say within 4 mins of idle, oil and coolant get up to running temp rapidly on the warm up lap (oil temps lag the coolant). During the timed laps the coolant temp hits a max and sits flat at around 90 degrees c. (190 F) This is with the engine running WoT for 95% of the 6 mins run, with revs between 6000-8000rpm.

I will note that I run in fairly warm climates... so the minimum temp the car would see is around 12 degrees C (50F). It's more a challenge to keep the car cool than keep it warm.
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Old 05-11-2015, 09:24 AM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madjak View Post
Why all the bashing? This is the Race Prep section... isn't it good to get differing ideas on the forum?

If the car is a track car only, why run a thermostat? I see a thermostat as another point of failure and an unnecessary restriction point. I don't run a coolant nor an oil thermostat. If your sitting stationary what does the thermostat actually do to help speed up warming the system? There is the same thermal energy going into the block and very low heat loss through the radiator. The only time a thermostat makes any difference is when the car is at cruise which a track car is rarely doing. Under WoT I want my cooling system to working optimally with very rapid circulation so that there is less temperature differential across the engine.

My car is a time attack / sprint car with a built NA8 engine. It doesn't run a thermostat but the cooling system is balanced by a half width Honda radiator. The engine gets warmed up on the trailer and in the pits. It then gets a single warmup lap before 5 or so full speed runs with a cooldown at the end.

The logs show the engine gets up to temp quickly, say within 4 mins of idle, oil and coolant get up to running temp rapidly on the warm up lap (oil temps lag the coolant). During the timed laps the coolant temp hits a max and sits flat at around 90 degrees c. (190 F) This is with the engine running WoT for 95% of the 6 mins run, with revs between 6000-8000rpm.

I will note that I run in fairly warm climates... so the minimum temp the car would see is around 12 degrees C (50F). It's more a challenge to keep the car cool than keep it warm.
Thanks for bringing this up. You might be the first person to ever use these arguments as to why you're not running a thermostat.
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Old 05-11-2015, 09:36 AM   #240
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AFAIK, Thermostat isn't just for warm-up conditions.

It regulates the coolant temperature to keep Engine running in an IDEAL temp window.

For me, I run one. Why?

1) I built my cooling system to survive 100*+ track days.
2) In Colorado, it is not always 100* on track.
3) I always want my coolant to be 180-190* for reduced cylinder wear.
4) Thermostat achieves this via regulation of flow.

If you can build a cooling system thermostat-less that will work for your engine, at any given air temperature range then bravo! Most Miata's can't achieve that hence the adamant suggestion of many most people on this board.

I think of it like brakes. Brakes are the negative acceleration to our motor's positive acceleration. The Cooling system is the negative to our engine's thermal output. You can build an insanely powerful braking system that will lock-up when you breathe on the pedal but that's not an efficient way to brake. The brakes need to be modulated to efficiently slow the car. The cooling system needs to be modulated in the same-effect to achieve ideal cooling "power" for the given environment. That's what the thermostat does. Even on race cars.

I'm no pro, have no massive race resume, and frankly am just an enthusiast so YMMV.
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