water to air intercoolers
09-02-2010, 12:58 PM
#41
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Personally, depends on what you want to do.... you can dual TB, and A/W as well....
If you are on the track, or think heat soak of the a/w will be a problem, do option b). I haven't had any issue with option b) on the track, or anywhere else for that matter. <G>
Dave,
If you are on the track, or think heat soak of the a/w will be a problem, do option b). I haven't had any issue with option b) on the track, or anywhere else for that matter. <G>
Dave,
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10-16-2010, 08:50 PM
#42
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Would anyone have any suggestions for a good heat exchanger? Was hoping to find something specifically designed for this, instead of a generic oil cooler. Have any of you added a dedicated fan to your heat exchanger?
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10-16-2010, 09:30 PM
#45
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Unfortunately for an M45 setup, throttled volume is a very real issue. I've driven similar cars with the A/A IC, and there is a noticeable difference for this particular application. For the meantime' I'd like to try to optimize this setup. I do appreciate the advice though 
Maybe I'll work on removing the band aids too
Maybe I'll work on removing the band aids too
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10-17-2010, 09:41 AM
#47
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There isn't really anything wrong with using an oil cooler.
rads and oil coolers are all designed to do the same thing: increase the surface area to promote heat flow out of the liquid. Just find something with a lot of fins and the size you want that doesn't block air flow to you radiator much.
rads and oil coolers are all designed to do the same thing: increase the surface area to promote heat flow out of the liquid. Just find something with a lot of fins and the size you want that doesn't block air flow to you radiator much.
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10-27-2010, 02:35 PM
#48
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you know you can always use a radiator from a smaller car, a good capacity and a the ability to buffer and shift the heat is the real key to getting an A/W system to work well
I use the cooling rad from a small FIAT 500 (the core is 450mm x 285mm x 34mm) and it works an absolute treat with my PWR barrel. My car doesn't have aircon so I have the the second fan hooked up to a thermostatic controller in the charge cooler system, on the move this is pretty pointless but it does stop the system heat soaking in traffic
I also actually have a dual TB set up and WI as well ;-)
I use the cooling rad from a small FIAT 500 (the core is 450mm x 285mm x 34mm) and it works an absolute treat with my PWR barrel. My car doesn't have aircon so I have the the second fan hooked up to a thermostatic controller in the charge cooler system, on the move this is pretty pointless but it does stop the system heat soaking in traffic
I also actually have a dual TB set up and WI as well ;-)
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10-28-2010, 09:59 AM
#50
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One of the guys i know in the UK with a similar set up to mine with an overspun M45 was seeing about 42 degs on tick-over on his Adaptronic in the garage and around 41 degs driving around off boost and reached a maximum of 62degs at 12psi WOT, post cooler that was with no water injection and a pretty warm outside temp of 29 degs
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10-29-2010, 02:41 PM
#52
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I didnt see how old this thread was but here we go! (EDIT: I see that this was back in march!! my bad... oh well)
liquid to air isn't old technology! they are rather a better solution to the affets of cooling! why is it that most vehicles today are liquid cooled!
liquid (water specifically) has a far greater property than air. That property is that it can absorb more energy (in the form of heat) from what it surrounds.
The issue with L/A intercoolers is that you need air to then cool the liquid!!
this seems tough to do right???
Yes it is! there is planning that needs to be obtained and practiced.
factors such as cores, heat exchangers, the volume of liquid in the system, and several other things.
Cores: tend to be small which they can be because water is that good at extracting the heat, they are also rather restrictive. Look at the cores before you decide on what one you want. you do want a semi restrictive one as this will help with the cooling to an extent, but you dont want an L/A intercooler that is just a sealed air to air core. you will want more water passages that are small where you can have more passages per inch (ie like a radiator, but not) lots of fins where the air flows and smaller water passages that have fins as well.
heat exchangers: like a radiator surface area is everything a 2'' thick core is plenty for most aplications, and for the miata it is all you really want blocking the nose of the car. A crossflow is a good heat exchanger as they usually allow for more surface area. you can buy duel pass cross flows that fit in the NB bumper quite well, as im sure it will fit the NA's as well!
for DD's or street preped cars you have the issue of traffic! in the country all is well but in a more populated area there is a potential for heat soak.
Proper use of fans is needed (and for the miata in general the fan(s) need to be thin!) the longer the radiator the harder it is to get a fan to be productive in 1) cooling the radiator 2) not blocking too much airflow through the heat exchanger when in motion (this is present in even a shorter 1 fan set up)
Volume: this is a big part of the liquid to airs.
too little and you have a better chance for heat soak and that just kills performance! too much and you have extra weight added to the car, and lets face it we have miatas, weight is our enemy!
to increase volume you can route a bunch of hoses all over the place, but that is absurd!! so a resivoir is the next thought and that works great, except most people put them under the hood of the car....where it is hot!
spray some washer fluid on your hands after you go for a good hard drive!. and that is in a plastic bottle what about metal!! ya that isn't a logical option, keeping a metal one under the hood! there is a place to put a bottle/resivoir on nb's and na's that is logical, that space is where the washer resivoir sits in that pic of the BRG.
PUMP: just use the one from the cobras as they are meant to be used in L/A setups (its a bosch unit)
and unlike air to airs you can add ice to these bewteen/during auto x or drag runs... or if some kid is talking **** at a gas station throw some ice in an do a quick pull!...and like air to airs you can use a spray bar and use water's evaporative nature to take some heat with it for better cooling. this sprayer can be manually controlled or by utilizing a WOT switch.
all in all they are far more complicated than A/A's but are/can be far better when assembled by a compitent person.
Cost can be an issue, but have you seen the cost of a "good" A/A intercooler. they can be similar in price when said and done. L/A's aren't too hard to install either, but its going to take longer than an hour or two.
Ohh BTW I have a PWR for sale! it came off of my mazdaspeed.
before i went to l/a I had an ebay intercooler! they are junk!!!! horrible flow both in the core, and too flat for the ambient air to really flow through!
liquid to air isn't old technology! they are rather a better solution to the affets of cooling! why is it that most vehicles today are liquid cooled!
liquid (water specifically) has a far greater property than air. That property is that it can absorb more energy (in the form of heat) from what it surrounds.
The issue with L/A intercoolers is that you need air to then cool the liquid!!
this seems tough to do right???
Yes it is! there is planning that needs to be obtained and practiced.
factors such as cores, heat exchangers, the volume of liquid in the system, and several other things.
Cores: tend to be small which they can be because water is that good at extracting the heat, they are also rather restrictive. Look at the cores before you decide on what one you want. you do want a semi restrictive one as this will help with the cooling to an extent, but you dont want an L/A intercooler that is just a sealed air to air core. you will want more water passages that are small where you can have more passages per inch (ie like a radiator, but not) lots of fins where the air flows and smaller water passages that have fins as well.
heat exchangers: like a radiator surface area is everything a 2'' thick core is plenty for most aplications, and for the miata it is all you really want blocking the nose of the car. A crossflow is a good heat exchanger as they usually allow for more surface area. you can buy duel pass cross flows that fit in the NB bumper quite well, as im sure it will fit the NA's as well!
for DD's or street preped cars you have the issue of traffic! in the country all is well but in a more populated area there is a potential for heat soak.
Proper use of fans is needed (and for the miata in general the fan(s) need to be thin!) the longer the radiator the harder it is to get a fan to be productive in 1) cooling the radiator 2) not blocking too much airflow through the heat exchanger when in motion (this is present in even a shorter 1 fan set up)
Volume: this is a big part of the liquid to airs.
too little and you have a better chance for heat soak and that just kills performance! too much and you have extra weight added to the car, and lets face it we have miatas, weight is our enemy!
to increase volume you can route a bunch of hoses all over the place, but that is absurd!! so a resivoir is the next thought and that works great, except most people put them under the hood of the car....where it is hot!
spray some washer fluid on your hands after you go for a good hard drive!. and that is in a plastic bottle what about metal!! ya that isn't a logical option, keeping a metal one under the hood! there is a place to put a bottle/resivoir on nb's and na's that is logical, that space is where the washer resivoir sits in that pic of the BRG.
PUMP: just use the one from the cobras as they are meant to be used in L/A setups (its a bosch unit)
and unlike air to airs you can add ice to these bewteen/during auto x or drag runs... or if some kid is talking **** at a gas station throw some ice in an do a quick pull!...and like air to airs you can use a spray bar and use water's evaporative nature to take some heat with it for better cooling. this sprayer can be manually controlled or by utilizing a WOT switch.
all in all they are far more complicated than A/A's but are/can be far better when assembled by a compitent person.
Cost can be an issue, but have you seen the cost of a "good" A/A intercooler. they can be similar in price when said and done. L/A's aren't too hard to install either, but its going to take longer than an hour or two.
Ohh BTW I have a PWR for sale! it came off of my mazdaspeed.
before i went to l/a I had an ebay intercooler! they are junk!!!! horrible flow both in the core, and too flat for the ambient air to really flow through!
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12-03-2010, 09:48 PM
#53
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The air-water intercooler is only as good as its weakest link. I had one on my m45 supercharged 97 and above all, the most important element is the efficiency of the heat exchanger. Adding extra water reserve is good, water wetter, and a nice long barrel intercooler, but if you skimp on the heat exchanger you'll eventually heat-soak, especially if the car is ran on the track. I guess that really isn't an issue on the street though.
The 03-04 Cobra's have an air-water intercooler system, and a closed off coolant system for the intercooler too. Ever seen how big that heat exchanger is? it's pretty damn wide... Not the little bitty thing that Jackson Racing offered.
The 03-04 Cobra's have an air-water intercooler system, and a closed off coolant system for the intercooler too. Ever seen how big that heat exchanger is? it's pretty damn wide... Not the little bitty thing that Jackson Racing offered.
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12-03-2010, 09:54 PM
#54
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Hmmm... The part about the power air to air intercooler on the mazdaspeed got my attention? Would it be to my benefit to run a 4x6 barrel intercooler prior to the throttle body or maybe replace the FM intake tube that leads to the intercooler? Run my 27x5.5x2.5 air to air intercooler and a 4x6 air to water, I woulder what sorta difference it would make.
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03-10-2011, 07:54 PM
#55
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Hmmm... The part about the power air to air intercooler on the mazdaspeed got my attention? Would it be to my benefit to run a 4x6 barrel intercooler prior to the throttle body or maybe replace the FM intake tube that leads to the intercooler? Run my 27x5.5x2.5 air to air intercooler and a 4x6 air to water, I woulder what sorta difference it would make.
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03-13-2011, 08:57 PM
#57
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with a good system you will have way lower intake temps than an air to air kit...even if the water is warmer than ambient air what feels colder.. 50* air
of 65* water.. even though the water is warmer it still feels colder because it absorbs the heat from your body quicker!... a few key things to a good liquid to air kit.
Capacity-
the more your system can hold the more it will take to heat soak it!... the easiest way to get more capaciy is to have a reservoir (that also can use ice is a huge bonus)... A spot mounted in the trunk with long running lines is also going to increase capacity!
The down sides to this is the fact that liquid weighs a fair amount! and for the miata weight is the one thing we dont try to increase! So luckily this can be compensated with a nice heat exchanger....
core -
liquid to air intercoolers are known to be restrictive, but this also helps with cooling! and seeing as though they are ususally mounted in the most direct way to the throttle body you dont really notice it!
heat exchanger-
a nice heat exchanger will keep the system to as close to ambient as possible! Some of the nicest I have seen are a dual pass crossflow.. this will elongate how long the liquid stays in the exchanger...(theoretically)
Also to maximize efficency you could set up a WOT sprayer to spray the heat exchanger to optimize cooling. under hard pulls! As the water evaporates from the exchanger the energy (heat) dissapates with it (like getting out of a shower and stepping in front of a fan!) ..speeking of fan in stop and go traffic you would also need one of these!
The kits are usually more of a task to install and do right, but when done right it is hard beat!...
this was done on a droid... and i couldnt see what I was typing so sorry for any errors as Im sure there are a few
of 65* water.. even though the water is warmer it still feels colder because it absorbs the heat from your body quicker!... a few key things to a good liquid to air kit.
Capacity-
the more your system can hold the more it will take to heat soak it!... the easiest way to get more capaciy is to have a reservoir (that also can use ice is a huge bonus)... A spot mounted in the trunk with long running lines is also going to increase capacity!
The down sides to this is the fact that liquid weighs a fair amount! and for the miata weight is the one thing we dont try to increase! So luckily this can be compensated with a nice heat exchanger....
core -
liquid to air intercoolers are known to be restrictive, but this also helps with cooling! and seeing as though they are ususally mounted in the most direct way to the throttle body you dont really notice it!
heat exchanger-
a nice heat exchanger will keep the system to as close to ambient as possible! Some of the nicest I have seen are a dual pass crossflow.. this will elongate how long the liquid stays in the exchanger...(theoretically)
Also to maximize efficency you could set up a WOT sprayer to spray the heat exchanger to optimize cooling. under hard pulls! As the water evaporates from the exchanger the energy (heat) dissapates with it (like getting out of a shower and stepping in front of a fan!) ..speeking of fan in stop and go traffic you would also need one of these!
The kits are usually more of a task to install and do right, but when done right it is hard beat!...
this was done on a droid... and i couldnt see what I was typing so sorry for any errors as Im sure there are a few
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