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While admittedly not up to date on all the options my go to shock for performance daily driver has always been the Bilstein. The big question for the Miata will be how well off the shelf billys perform with your spring rates.
I understand and agree with not going overboard on a cheap daily driver. While difficult to reconcile on paper you'd be hard pressed to find another area of improvement that would have as great of an impact on your enjoyment of the car. Food for thought as you take the plunge.
Buy cheap, buy twice. That said, if you are going to buy cheap- NB Bilsteins (NOT the NA ones, which have completely different valving), Flyin Miata springs, NB top hats, FCM bump stops. This setup was 85% as good as my Xida GS setup for street driving, and not too shabby on the track. That said, the GS setup was definitely worth the money.
Broke bitch Burger King burger flipper happy meal: Budget bilsteins with 550/350 springs or 450/300 springs.
Home Depot assistant paint department manager flexin': Goodwin Feal 441s
I'm a real boy now and i don't need to have unique brain function slapping meat on table: Xidas in a flavor of your choice
Let's be fair, XIDAs as great as they are......had 800/500 on my NA. Are still pretty inexpensive.
Buy cheap, buy twice. That said, if you are going to buy cheap- NB Bilsteins (NOT the NA ones, which have completely different valving), Flyin Miata springs, NB top hats, FCM bump stops. This setup was 85% as good as my Xida GS setup for street driving, and not too shabby on the track. That said, the GS setup was definitely worth the money.
I've had just about every shock except Fox on my car. I vote either cheap Bilsteins, Xida GS or Xida Race. Pick what fits your budget and goals. The other choices are just not as good, and I loath doing things more than once now. On my GT86, I went with MCS...they are good but I wish there were Xidas available when I purchased.
I've had just about every shock except Fox on my car. I vote either cheap Bilsteins, Xida GS or Xida Race. Pick what fits your budget and goals. The other choices are just not as good, and I loath doing things more than once now. On my GT86, I went with MCS...they are good but I wish there were Xidas available when I purchased.
I'm curious what you think XIDA specific shocks for the Twins would do better than your MCS setup? Price? Is damping at the front or rear not what you expected, is the spring rate where it needs to be, tires performing as they should as far as temperatures and stuff? Honestly asking out of curiosity, not trying to be a jerk or play a gotcha.
I just ask because for the average driver, the few % difference between a XIDA or a triple-adjustable Penske.........most aren't going to be able to discern the difference.
I'm curious what you think XIDA specific shocks for the Twins would do better than your MCS setup? Price? Is damping at the front or rear not what you expected, is the spring rate where it needs to be, tires performing as they should as far as temperatures and stuff? Honestly asking out of curiosity, not trying to be a jerk or play a gotcha.
I just ask because for the average driver, the few % difference between a XIDA or a triple-adjustable Penske.........most aren't going to be able to discern the difference.
The biggest things are more stroke, ride height and being able to get reasonable camber (-3ish) without camber plates. The valving of the MCS shocks is linear, so that has it's own flavor in how the car drives but the shocks themselves are quality. They make the AST5100 I had on the car feel like a dumpster fire and they handle very well on a bumpy autocross lot with 450lb springs F/R. Comfort on the street is acceptable although my Miata with Xida Race (800/500) and a big tubular front bar still rides better on the street in some ways. Particularly over quick sharp hits which the digressive valving just handles better. Over big bumps I'd say it is a draw. Another thing I've noticed with the MCS is the adjustment is a lot more subtle than the Xida. I know that it is common for race shocks to have a more narrow adjustment range and that the Xida intentionally have a wider range/sweep, this is not a knock on the MCS as they work fine for my application. I also opted for the 1 way adjustable non-remote MCS because these are capable of being upgraded to two-way remotes in the future if I want.
The 86 platform is a lot like the Miata and the rear shocks are really short even from the factory. The MCS application for the GT86 was developed in large part by Vorshlag. They opted to split the shocks into two versions, a shorter model for the low boi autocross crowd and another that was stock class compatible. I went with the shorter shock and it is hard to get a reasonable ride height out of them. I am running it a little more than 1" lower than stock (13.5" from the hub to fender) and the car struggles getting in and out of driveways everywhere. It's bad enough I do not take the car places if I know the driveways are troublesome.
This is a photo of the car as it sits today. Raise the car too much and it is going to be outside the sweet spot of bump/droop with the shock length. 949 are the only people I know of that fret over every little detail when it comes to suspension and want to make their product as good as possible, I can't say the same for everyone else out there. From what I've seen them share on the forums about the GT86 Xida, they will have more bump travel front and rear which is a good thing and you can run the car at a reasonable ride height. Additionally, the geometry in the front of this car goes really wonky if you go too low. So it makes the ride height you run that much more important.
Here are a few notes comparing the stock shocks to the MCS. I didn't take measurements of my AST5100s before I sold them but I do have a photo comparing the rear shocks.
Stock struts/shocks with TRD bump stops (shorter than OEM and intended for TRD lowering springs)
Front Strut
148mm total travel
97mm travel with bump stop
51mm bump stop length
Rear Shock
124mm total travel
90mm travel with bump stop
34mm bump stop length
MCS Struts/Shocks (you do not run bump stops)
Front Travel - 108mm
Rear Travel - 102mm
AST5100 rear shock with stock top hat next to MCS short rear shock with Vorshlag coaxial top hat.
Camber plates are a big expense and add a serious amount of NVH to the platform. NVH wise, it's really noticeable on the freeway with grooved concrete sections. It isn't the end of the world, but the car is otherwise a really nice place to be and if I could get rid of the NVH I would but I need the cambers for autocross. I also spent a lot of money on Vorshlag's camber plates and rear top hats with my shocks and they left a lot to be desired. The press fit radial bearings in the spring perches all had different measurements varying 1-5mm in height. Is that a big deal? Probably not but given how much I spent, I was expecting precision not good enough.
I'm mostly salty about their response on that subject and how it was handled. Another issue is camber plates on this platform are all over the place. Every company has a different stack height and most eat into your precious bump travel in the front. My notes show that Vorshlag is one of the better choices when it comes to stack height. Another great design element, /s, of the rear top hats is the top of the shocks contact the inside of the upper spring perch at max travel. They machined those too thick so I run a really slim packard in there to prevent metal on metal contact.
Another challenge with the GT86 suspension design is swaybar endlink interference at race negative camber. Both the AST and MCS have endlink contact at the bottom of the strut if you want more than -3* of camber. The MCS can't even utilize the slotted upper strut bolt without everything contacting. With my Vorshlag camber plates I have a max of ~ -3.3 camber and it still isn't enough even with a less sticky tire like the NT-01. On a RE-71r or A052 at autocross I'm guessing it wants north of -4*. In short, there are a lot of little details that add up to something that I would like a solution for. I see that in the Xida for the GT86 and appreciate the time spent on development to get them right. I would rather throw money at a product than spending my own time doing that.
To answer your last question, I think the average driver would notice a difference between those shocks and they would have a worse time on the 3-way Penskes compared to the Xida. The more adjustments you can make, the more rope you have to hang yourself. Most folks can't even describe handling problems accurately let alone understand what changes need to be made to compensate. Hell, adjusting a 1-way coilover is more adjustment than most want to make. Less is more until you can drive the wheels off what you have but having a good shock under you sure as heck makes it easier to learn what to do.
Last edited by Lincoln Logs; 05-01-2020 at 10:20 AM.
The easy button none of us want to admit to is the ~400/260lb FM Vmaxx Xtreme. You get an application specific fixed length shock, properly configured spring stroke with helpers and even adjustable damping. You can get them with the higher rate ~500/340 Track Pack springs if desired.
I've built myself two sets of diy billies and my new daily came with a set already installed. They need quite a bit more secret saucing than the MT hivemind will admit, hence the 900 page thread. Extended hats, upper spring perches, particular lower perches or custom machined grooves, etc, and then they are only 'happy' up to about 500lb in the front, IMO. The sweet spot is lower than that for street ride quality.
My current set has extended mounts f&r with 'just' 500/350 and my 900/500 Gen2 Xida Race ride significantly better.
Vmaxxxx is garbage, I had them. Ride like crap on the street and not much better on the track.
The <$500 eBay mass-market Vmaxx crap(I agree with you) shares little with the $939 FM Vmaxx Xtreme. The proprietary FM variant is quite good, and has more rear stroke and a better spring rate stagger than OTS BC/Feal/Fortune/Stance stuff.
The easy button none of us want to admit to is the ~400/260lb FM Vmaxx Xtreme. You get an application specific fixed length shock, properly configured spring stroke with helpers and even adjustable damping. You can get them with the higher rate ~500/340 Track Pack springs if desired.
This right here. I'd also like to point out even my "baller" MCS did not come with springs that had the correct length or spring stroke, helpers, bump stops, Torrington bearings, thrust sheets or anything else fancy. That is all on the end user who has already spent nearly $4000 for single adjustable coilovers, let that sink in. The more I think about it the more I wish I could have just bought Xidas for substantially less and gotten a complete package. All of the details add up and they do matter.
Last edited by Lincoln Logs; 04-30-2020 at 06:27 PM.
Vmaxx aren't bad, I guess, they hit a price point of assembled gear between total crap and Race spec stuff, in line with DIY billies, but turn key for someone who doesn't want to have to do the hard work.
I had the FM Vmaxx XXtremo's or whatever they are called on my old 01. It was super bouncy on the track. I didn't like them on the street or the track.
04-30-2020, 11:06 AM
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