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Old 12-05-2010, 12:33 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by 90R View Post
what will you install them on?
Quality shocks such as Tokico or Bilstein. For NB's out of the box Bilsteins for about $400 are much higher quality than Ricelands.
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Old 12-05-2010, 12:35 AM   #42
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Quality shocks such as Tokico or Bilstein. For NB's out of the box Bilsteins for about $400 are much higher quality than Ricelands.
that's nice....I'll be $200 richer
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Old 12-05-2010, 01:21 AM   #43
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that's nice....I'll be $200 richer
Or is that $300 dumber
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Old 12-05-2010, 02:17 AM   #44
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oh look, Bilstein yellow


and Koni red


contrary to your opinion, I think this is a great revelation and opens possibilities when the shocks do go away.
My opinion isn't quite as contrary to yours as you might think.

To a degree the concept is actually growing on me....a bit. And I do like the idea of installing something decent within a protective shell of a sort. I'm just not impressed with the insert they used, though I recognize they are building to a price point.

I have to admit, though, that not being as familiar with shocks as you are, I was completely surprised that there was another little shock inside what I thought was the shock. Learn something new every day.
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Old 12-05-2010, 03:32 AM   #45
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I was expecting it and bought a set in the hopes that the cartridge could be changed. The BMW guys have been putting inserts into racelands for a year or so now.
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Old 12-05-2010, 03:40 AM   #46
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I was expecting it and bought a set in the hopes that the cartridge could be changed. The BMW guys have been putting inserts into racelands for a year or so now.
Any luck finding an upgraded insert?
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Old 12-05-2010, 03:45 AM   #47
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It's a little different for the Miata guys than the BMW guys. The BMW guys have to use inserts due to the strut style suspension unless they want to spend a little more. The idea of putting a monotube inside of a tube and then mounting that instead of just mounting the original monotube would only be for when you need to "hide" a shock (cheater). This is not as uncommon as you would think. A lot of oval track series have spec twin tube shocks, so the best way to get a rebuildable shock is to hide it in the gutted twin tube body.
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Old 12-05-2010, 04:00 AM   #48
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I will be posting all of the data on these shocks, along with pictures, later today.

For the individuals that want to get really detailed on the data, I suggest you download the Roehrig dyno software. Here is a link: http://roehrigengineering.com/Downlo...ads%20page.htm

Download the software and install in demo mode. I will post the data file and the software will allow you to see the shocks in full detail with all available graphs.
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Old 12-05-2010, 04:03 AM   #49
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The main issue, is there's very little shape to the curves. The actual stiffness is an issue on the rear rebound, but the more important element is the shape of the curves.

The rebound is pretty much a linear line, which would suggest a piston that's allowing a lot of bleed around it rather than through it. That's poor design/manufacture/components.

Bump is similar, but clearly has a knee point where the curve 'blow-off' from the initial rate. Still, there's potential for a more low speed bump to keep those stiff springs under control for traction.

If you're interested, there's some useful stuff here: http://www.optimumg.com/OptimumGWebS...Tech_Tip_4.pdf
I've read that source. Have you seen the "curve" of the Xida shock? It isn't too dissimilar...on compression or rebound. After .5-1 inch/s the curves become quite linear.

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Old 12-05-2010, 04:08 AM   #50
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Please don't get too excited about this. There is still a lot that the dyno doesn't show. Remember when I told you guys that you can build two shocks that look the same on the dyno that will not react the same on the vehicle.

Not all linear graphs mean a linear piston. You can valve a digressive piston with a lot of bleed and it will look like a linear, as in the case with some Bilsteins.

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Originally Posted by Disaster View Post
I've read that source. Have you seen the "curve" of the Xida shock? It isn't too dissimilar...on compression or rebound. After .5-1 inch/s the curves become quite linear.

Last edited by Bernie S.; 12-05-2010 at 04:22 AM.
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Old 12-05-2010, 04:25 AM   #51
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Please don't get too excited about this. There is still a lot that the dyno doesn't show. Remember when I told you guys that you can build two shocks that look the same on the dyno that will not react the same on the vehicle.

Not all linear graphs mean a linear piston. You can valve a digressive piston with a lot of bleed and it will look like a linear, as in the case with some Bilsteins.
It will be interesting to view the more complete data when you get it. My point though, was the linear curve shown isn't bad, as PhilMD seemed to suggest. The curve alone (other than the rebound issue) isn't a reason to denigrate them.

I read your earlier comments suggesting there are attributes that the shock dyno doesn't show. I'm still trying to get a handle on that. Perhaps when I see the raw data it will make more sense.
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Old 12-05-2010, 04:36 AM   #52
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Just because the rebound curve appears alright, that doesn't mean it is. It depends on how they achieved the valving. If they used a linear piston, sure. If they used a digressive with a lot of bleed, then that is sort of old school and common with production units to cover flaws.

Picture a shock where the piston doesn't have any shims, only ports/holes. When the shock changes direction, there is nothing really controlling the low speed.

Even with the raw data, you can't confirm the valving for sure until you open the shock up.


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Originally Posted by Disaster View Post
It will be interesting to view the more complete data when you get it. My point though, was the linear curve shown isn't bad, as PhilMD seemed to suggest. The curve alone (other than the rebound issue) isn't a reason to denigrate them.

I read your earlier comments suggesting there are attributes that the shock dyno doesn't show. I'm still trying to get a handle on that. Perhaps when I see the raw data it will make more sense.
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Old 12-05-2010, 04:44 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Bernie S. View Post
Picture a shock where the piston doesn't have any shims, only ports/holes. When the shock changes direction, there is nothing really controlling the low speed.

Even with the raw data, you can't confirm the valving for sure until you open the shock up.
When you say there is "nothing really controlling the low speed" what do you mean and why wouldn't that be shown on the dyno charts? How low speed are we talking about? At a low enough speed, it seems, you don't even need or want damping.

P.S. Here you are up at insane hours again. ;-)
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Old 12-05-2010, 04:48 AM   #54
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And this is why I am heading to bed. Goodnight everyone.

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P.S. Here you are up at insane hours again. ;-)
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Old 12-05-2010, 04:56 AM   #55
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And this is why I am heading to bed. Goodnight everyone.
The trick is to pass out at 10pm like I did, and then get up at 3am. :-D

Thanks for providing the data and helping us understand how these things work...or are supposed to work.
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Old 12-05-2010, 07:50 AM   #56
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My opinion isn't quite as contrary to yours as you might think.

To a degree the concept is actually growing on me....a bit. And I do like the idea of installing something decent within a protective shell of a sort. I'm just not impressed with the insert they used, though I recognize they are building to a price point.

I have to admit, though, that not being as familiar with shocks as you are, I was completely surprised that there was another little shock inside what I thought was the shock. Learn something new every day.
I wondered about it. When you look down the shaft, into the top nut. The seal is about 1 cm recessed. I've never seen a mono tube like that.
The revelation of the inserts will be nice for long term service. I'm doubtful we'll get a forum correct insert in there for performance. But then again....they are $300 CO's I just don't care.

ya left my best line out :(
These shocks have yet to surprise me. I got exactly, if not more than I paid for.
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:45 AM   #57
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These shocks have yet to surprise me. I got exactly, if not more than I paid for.
Funny you should say that. I still haven't decided if I'll install them when they come back from Bernie. I might....just to be able to follow up on how they "feel" in the vehicle. In the meantime, I've become more and more enamored by the Xida's 949Racing is selling. They are an additional $200 if you want them with helper springs. You know what I'm thinking...."Are these the same coil diameter? Do I already have a perfectly good pair of Raceland helpers?"
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Old 12-05-2010, 10:32 AM   #58
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Funny you should say that. I still haven't decided if I'll install them when they come back from Bernie. I might....just to be able to follow up on how they "feel" in the vehicle.
you need to do that with 275# rear spring. Drive it for 6 mos and report back to the class.
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Old 12-05-2010, 02:46 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Bernie S. View Post
Picture a shock where the piston doesn't have any shims, only ports/holes. When the shock changes direction, there is nothing really controlling the low speed.

Even with the raw data, you can't confirm the valving for sure until you open the shock up.
I think what Bernie's saying here is that without shims or some other way of differentiating between low and high speed damping you're stuck with a single and mostly linear damping rate. Damping still occurs as the fluid moves past the ports/holes, but you can't set up a different damping rate (the slope of the graph) for low speed.

Those shims can be tuned to open and blow off pressure by the tuner. At low speeds they can be set to stay put, forcing the shock fluid through the bleed hole. When a large hit occurs (high speed event), the pressure spike forces the shims to deflect which opens additional ports. The damping curve now follows a different slope.

More or less bleed, and how it is combined with the control provided by the shim stack and piston ports, can sometimes mean shocks will have roughly similar plots but will arrive at those plots using different components.
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Old 12-05-2010, 03:10 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie S. View Post
Please don't get too excited about this. There is still a lot that the dyno doesn't show. Remember when I told you guys that you can build two shocks that look the same on the dyno that will not react the same on the vehicle.

Not all linear graphs mean a linear piston. You can valve a digressive piston with a lot of bleed and it will look like a linear, as in the case with some Bilsteins.
This is something I don't understand as to why Bilstein does this. Looking at the dyno graph I posted elsewhere for Bilstein Corvette race shocks they have what looks to be a linear rebound similar to the NA Bilstein.
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