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Old 06-02-2015, 01:25 AM   #21
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The stats in USA?
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Old 06-02-2015, 10:19 AM   #22
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18psi, you come from Russia, yeah?

Organized crime is much more of a problem there than here. USA has a tradition of obedience to the rule of law. I'm not saying people don't break laws, everyone does, but generally speaking we still, as a society, think it's bad to break the law. In Russia, do people feel the same way? The reason it works here is that we buy in. The less we buy in to obeying the law, the less it works though.

Throwing organized crime out, and looking at the crime remaining, yes, armed citizens are an adequate deterrent to much of remaining crime. Now, I believe we also should educate and train people on gun safety, but an armed citizenship is vital to America functioning the way America does. If we remove the right to bear arms, only then would we see and understand the unfortunate consequences.

Currently, I don't own a fire arm, but I will.
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Old 06-02-2015, 10:41 AM   #23
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Yep. Maybe, but you don't think thugs/thieves/scumbags here will try to get revenge on you if you killed one of their "homiez"? I dunno

And trust me, I'm NOT against people having the right to have weapons. Not at all. I guess what I find weird is how obsessed some people are with this, when in reality if you actually use the weapon you're in for a world of headache whether it was justified or not, and IMHO 99% of the people that have them or want them don't know how to use them or wouldn't even be able to properly diffuse the situation. (this goes back to what you just said about educating folks). Maybe it's because we're in sissy CA, but I haven't seen a single instance where a gun was used by a non-cop that didn't land them in jail, then court trials for months/years trying to figure out if it was justified, etc. Maybe that's it.

I'm completely open to being proven wrong, this isn't some stance I'm taking lol
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Old 06-02-2015, 11:04 AM   #24
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Someone runs up to you, threatens, you shoot them, the likelihood of you going away for a long time or ever is high, you go through insane court trials and all sorts of crap over what?
In the PRC (People's Republic of California), maybe. Most of the country has "Stand your ground" laws that allow the use of deadly force if someone threatens to harm you or your property.

In many states it even allows the use of deadly force to protect someone else.
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Old 06-02-2015, 11:14 AM   #25
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In the PRC (People's Republic of California), maybe. Most of the country has "Stand your ground" laws that allow the use of deadly force if someone threatens to harm you or your property.

In many states it even allows the use of deadly force to protect someone else.
You're still likely going to have some legal problems to clear up even if they clear you. The severity can range from simply talking to the police, it being clear cut, and you getting released all the way to zimmerman levels of legal problems. To pretend killing someone isn't going to cause problems for you just because it was justified is fairly ignorant. But even with all of this I would still rather be alive and fighting the legal system than six feet under.
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Old 06-02-2015, 11:21 AM   #26
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The stats in USA?
Yes, definitely.
A conservative estimate for the number of times a crime is prevented or stopped per year in the US is well over 1 million.
Note that this does not mean over 1 million triggers are pulled, but it is very clear that armed citizens have a dramatic effect on reducing crime.
Some more interesting facts: While it is true that the US has a higher fire-arm murder rate than say England or Australia, the violent crime rate is significantly lower.
Also, in areas of the country that have previously banned CCW loosen carry laws, crime drops. It never goes the other way around.


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in reality if you actually use the weapon you're in for a world of headache whether it was justified or not
Depends on the situation, political climate, and preparedness of the shooter.
If the situation is clearly justified and you know the appropriate things to say to law enforcement, you'll probably be just fine.
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IMHO 99% of the people that have them or want them don't know how to use them or wouldn't even be able to properly diffuse the situation.
I would trust an average CCW holder over the average police officer to make the right call in a shooting situation. Seriously. Restraint and marksmanship are very important qualities in people who routinely carry around a loaded gun. Most people who go through the trouble of obtaining a permit usually posses said qualities.

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Maybe it's because we're in sissy CA, but I haven't seen a single instance where a gun was used by a non-cop that didn't land them in jail, then court trials for months/years trying to figure out if it was justified, etc.
Bingo. Scenarios that go well for the good guy are seldom reported by the mainstream media, but they are numerous.
Maybe that's it.

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this isn't some stance I'm taking lol
Understood, and I hope the people responding will be respectful of that. The worst thing gun owners can do is be disrespectful of people who don't agree with us.
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Old 06-02-2015, 11:39 AM   #27
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Someone runs up to you, threatens, you shoot them, the likelihood of you going away for a long time or ever is high, you go through insane court trials and all sorts of crap over what? The fact that like .0001 people get shot or killed in these situations and somehow walking around with a weapon is going to make you good at diffusing a situation? C'mon. And then there's the crazies who will shoot people either way, so unless you can spot the, shoot and successfully kill them before they do what they wanna do, you won't stop jack diddly.
Another very common point made by anti-carry folks that holds no water (except your last sentence). What you're arguing is that it's better to be a victim, and whether you realize it or not, you're tailoring your argument where the bad-guy has the drop on you from the beginning of a situation. Very few self-defense experts will argue that if you are that far behind, that you can improve a situation by introducing your own firearm. It is better to explore other options, including cooperation.

The standard scenario plays out in movies all the time... bad guy has people held hostage in a bank! Good guy security guard thinks he's gonna be slick and tries to draw his gun in plain view of the bad guy... gets shot. This is what anti-gun folks want you to believe is the only outcome if you try to defend yourself with a gun.

Statistics show that thousands of people every day IN THIS COUNTRY are successful in spotting the bad guy before they have the complete upper hand and defending their lives with a firearm... whether that is exposing their gun to demonstrate they'll fight back, drawing the weapon, or firing the weapon. Sure, sometimes it just sucks to be you, but most people who carry firearms for self-defense don't choose "sucks to be me" as a way to live, and are prepared.

Quote:
Now, before the hatered flows, I'd like to say: I've come to the US from a country where so many people carry weapons. So what do the bad guys do? They carry bigger weapons. They carry automatic weapons. They're organized. So the people that want to jack you will end up killing you regardless, whether you take one or two of them out as you go or not.
That argument is invalid. You can always develop a scenario whereby there is no way to win, and you're using that argument to say it's better to be a victim all the time because of the very limited scenarios whereby there is no way to win (live through it) short of travelling with your own SEAL Team. The bad guys can start using C4 to break into your house I suppose, or RPG's during muggings. An obvious truth is that a gun will not always be the right answer, nor will even the most prepared and skilled person prevail in all scenarios. But to use that as a reason not to prepare for the majority of scenarios is disingenuous.

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The false sense of security or that somehow this is a good idea is what really makes me laugh. You can find just as many of, if not more, videos/reports/incidents where people with guns got robbed or killed as you will people without guns.
No you can't. What you will find are a few stories here and there that fit a specific anti-gun narrative that the liberal networks use to spin their propaganda about why carrying a gun makes every encounter with a bag guy worse. This is in contrast to the ample evidence that (I WILL SAY IT AGAIN) THOUSANDS of people every day use a firearm to successfully deter being victims.

Quote:
when in reality if you actually use the weapon you're in for a world of headache whether it was justified or not, and IMHO 99% of the people that have them or want them don't know how to use them or wouldn't even be able to properly diffuse the situation.
As for the headache of the aftermath of a shooting... it is a very valid concern. Most people are completely uneducated about just how significantly even the most righteous shooting may affect your life. I have no statistical evidence or specific examples, but all my homework shows that most people involved in righteous shootings make mistakes in the immediate aftermath that unintentionally cause them problems. You don't necessarily need a lawyer on retainer, but you need to know who to call, and for the most part, the only things you should be saying to the police is enough so they understand very clearly it was self-defense, while simultaneously saying "Officer, this has been very stressful for me, and I'm sure you'll understand if I don't want to say more right now. You have all my information, how about I come down to the station tomorrow with my attorney and we can talk more?"

"Many self-defense shootings don't have to happen" is probably a very accurate statement. Many shootings are due to somebody waiting too long to introduce a gun believe it or not. Many shootings are people who simply have no situational awareness and the firearm becomes their first/last/only option. I hope I'm not kidding myself about my own skills, but if I ever have to shoot a person, it's because they were trying to kill me... that it was obvious to the police when they arrived, that it was on video, and that there were witnesses, and most importantly, it was clear that there was nothing else I could have done to preserve my own life. In absence of that level of proof that what I did was legal and justified and don't get charged with a crime, there's always the chance for a civil suit "wrongful death", which can be just as financially devastating.

As for a false sense of security... who is kidding themselves more?
Me, who carries just in case and who incorporates a firearm in to an extensive self-defense plan... or somebody who's approach to security is "nothing bad will ever happen to me".

If this thread and the discussions interest you... please read these links:

Duty to Retreat, "Stand Your Ground", and Castle Doctrine
Duty to Retreat, "Stand Your Ground", and Castle Doctrine - The Firing Line Forums

On the Lawful Presentation of a Firearm in a Defensive Encounter
On the Lawful Presentation of a Firearm in a Defensive Encounter - The Firing Line Forums

Civil Liability, Civil Immunity, and the Use of Force
Civil Liability, Civil Immunity, and the Use of Force - The Firing Line Forums

Federal Constitutional Primer
Spats McGee?s Federal Constitutional Primer - The Firing Line Forums
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Old 06-02-2015, 11:44 AM   #28
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Yes, there is always the danger of that, but like I said, this is not as common or prevalent. True story about a man I know from church:

My friend, we’ll call him tom, had his truck stolen. Cops caught the bad guy, my friend opted to press charges. Bad guys buddies got pissed about this, and one day when my friend was in his yard pulling weeds, bad guys buddies pulled up, hopped out of a truck, and jumped him. Tom is an ex marine and ex CIA employee(in what role, I don’t know), so despite being in his 50’s, can take care of himself. He was outnumbered 3-1, and broke one of the guys legs before they knocked Tom out. Tom woke up in the hospital, and had been found in a puddle of his own blood at a bus stop down the street from the hospital. Tom recounted the story to the police/hospital staff. Turns out there was a guy who came in a few minutes before Tom with a broken leg. They put Tom on a stretcher and rolled him past the room with the other guy and his two buddies who were there keeping him company. Tom ID’d them, provided video from his home surveillance system to prove it, and they all went to jail.

If Tom had a gun, I don’t know what would have happened, but I bet it wouldn’t have been any worse than Tom nearly losing his life anyways.
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Old 06-02-2015, 11:50 AM   #29
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I'll check em out.

Here's a question: How many here have ever had their life legitimately threatened to the point of 100% needing a firearm?

What about as a statistic over the whole population? Is there such a statistic?


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Yes, there is always the danger of that, but like I said, this is not as common or prevalent. True story about a man I know from church:

My friend, we’ll call him tom, had his truck stolen. Cops caught the bad guy, my friend opted to press charges. Bad guys buddies got pissed about this, and one day when my friend was in his yard pulling weeds, bad guys buddies pulled up, hopped out of a truck, and jumped him. Tom is an ex marine and ex CIA employee(in what role, I don’t know), so despite being in his 50’s, can take care of himself. He was outnumbered 3-1, and broke one of the guys legs before they knocked Tom out. Tom woke up in the hospital, and had been found in a puddle of his own blood at a bus stop down the street from the hospital. Tom recounted the story to the police/hospital staff. Turns out there was a guy who came in a few minutes before Tom with a broken leg. They put Tom on a stretcher and rolled him past the room with the other guy and his two buddies who were there keeping him company. Tom ID’d them, provided video from his home surveillance system to prove it, and they all went to jail.

If Tom had a gun, I don’t know what would have happened, but I bet it wouldn’t have been any worse than Tom nearly losing his life anyways.
Ok I can understand that.
Here's another one, this is from a distant relative of mine, who is currently in prison:

stupid crackhead "homeboys" come over to threaten him over some dumb argument they got into. one of them pulls a gun to "de-escalate" the situation. said relative snatches it out of his hands, it goes off, he murders the homeboy on accident.

he's in for 7 years, after an insane amount of court and all sorta stuff, proving that he did in fact do all of this in self defense.

I guess it's an isolated "CA problem"?
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:04 PM   #30
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These are great! thanks!
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:06 PM   #31
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You're still likely going to have some legal problems to clear up even if they clear you. The severity can range from simply talking to the police, it being clear cut, and you getting released all the way to zimmerman levels of legal problems. To pretend killing someone isn't going to cause problems for you just because it was justified is fairly ignorant. But even with all of this I would still rather be alive and fighting the legal system than six feet under.
It's amazing the way some of you will try to read deeper into a statement than necessary in order to try to make a point.

I'm not suggesting you won't have ANY problems.

If you're justified in shooting someone, legally (not necessarily morally), than you won't have much of an issue - that was my point.

Zimmerman had issues because it wasn't clear cut and he could have avoided the situation by not following the kid.
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:10 PM   #32
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It's amazing the way some of you will try to read deeper into a statement than necessary in order to try to make a point.

I'm not suggesting you won't have ANY problems.

If you're justified in shooting someone, legally (not necessarily morally), than you won't have much of an issue - that was my point.

Zimmerman had issues because it wasn't clear cut and he could have avoided the situation by not following the kid.
Are you suggesting that most situation's are "clear cut" when it comes to shooting/killing/murder?
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:19 PM   #33
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None of the **** you are asking matters Vlad.

When legal gun ownership increases violent crime decreases and vice versa. Period. Regardless of country. Repeated world over.

End of story.
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:22 PM   #34
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Are you suggesting that most situation's are "clear cut" when it comes to shooting/killing/murder?
It's like you guys lack 5th grade reading comprehension.

I'm bowing out.
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:25 PM   #35
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Leftists the world over.
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:26 PM   #36
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That's cool you both can just leave the thread then.
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:27 PM   #37
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I didnt say Id leave. I said that you were wrong.
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:34 PM   #38
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That's cool. Now hush and let the grown ups with experience and knowledge actually post meaningful content.

If I wanted to hear a bunch of vague bickering and overdefensive insults I'd have gone to the source. I'm really not interested in the 100th pissing match.
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:37 PM   #39
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I already posted what you need to know.

Take guns from law abiding citizens, violent crime goes up. Do the reverse and the reverse happens.

All you need to do is google violent crime over time graphs and look up when legislation changes were made and to **** your confirmation bias off and you are set.
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:38 PM   #40
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<p>
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post
&nbsp;I would trust an average CCW holder over the average police officer to make the right call in a shooting situation. Seriously. Restraint and marksmanship are very important qualities in people who routinely carry around a loaded gun. Most people who go through the trouble of obtaining a permit usually posses said qualities.
</p><p>You must not know how easy it is to get a CCW in Oregon...you can do it all online pretty much.</p>
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