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Old 06-02-2015, 12:40 PM   #41
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Are you suggesting that most situation's are "clear cut" when it comes to shooting/killing/murder?
In a self defense situation, yes. As long as it is clear that you weren't the aggressor in the situation, and you had legitimate reason to fear for your life, then the legal issue is pretty cut and dry.
The Zimmerman case is that one in a million self-defense situation you hear about in the news because of questionable actions on the part of the shooter that in some way help bring about a deadly outcome.
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:41 PM   #42
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Is the situation I posted earlier a 2nd in a million? The one that actually happened with someone I know?

Are these questions pissng pro-gun people off? Should I just bow out and let this become a circle jerk?

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Old 06-02-2015, 12:44 PM   #43
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I literally dont need to post anything else, You sound like a 3rd wave feminist, stop using anecdotes and look at the stats, your feelings are irrelevant.
I swear to god I hope Im getting trolled.
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:45 PM   #44
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I literally dont need to post anything else, You sound like a 3rd wave feminist, stop using anecdotes and look at the stats, your feelings are irrelevant.
I swear to god I hope Im getting trolled.
great.

love the ninja edits
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:47 PM   #45
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<p></p><p>You must not know how easy it is to get a CCW in Oregon...you can do it all online pretty much.</p>
In fact, I do know, and I'm working on getting one myself because of how frequently I like to visit.
It is interesting how low your gun homicide rate is, especially compared to neighboring California.
It is easier in Indiana, and the permit lasts a lifetime with no need to renew.
It is still a process, and those responsible enough to go through it and follow the law are generally responsible people who get training and actually practice shooting.
I frequently help a buddy out in his gun-store, and almost every new shooter asks where they can take classes. If they don't, we politely suggest that they do and offer an on the spot safety lesson.
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Old 06-02-2015, 01:05 PM   #46
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The gun safety act of 2013 (gsa2013) is a win here in Maryland. (Sarcasm) We want to be California soooo bad. Last month, Baltimore just had a record setting murder count. 43 people killed in one month. We have had a higher count many years ago, but the population in Baltimore was higher at that time. So the record per capita was broken.

Not sure if it is just a continuation of the violence from the freddie gray riots or law enforcement apathy. The mayor and attorney general have made it very clear they dont support the police. So law enforcers are scared to do their job.
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Old 06-02-2015, 01:07 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Is the situation I posted earlier a 2nd in a million? The one that actually happened with someone I know?

I didn't see you post that the first time around, but refer to my previous post for circumstances that usually result in exoneration.
Maybe there was more to his side of the story, or maybe he was extraordinarily unlucky. I'm not saying bad outcomes don't happen, but if the person defending themselves does everything right, then they shouldn't and usually don't.

Are these questions pissng pro-gun people off? Should I just bow out and let this become a circle jerk?

Not in the least. Not me at least. I respect your opinion, and I thought you were legitimately asking for facts at first.
I think Dann's anger comes more from the fact that he doesn't like you. The conversation does not feel like a circle jerk apart from your neat little argument that we are all enjoying.

[email protected] - oh yeah bro, post up from all your gun owning experience and living in a place that has them outlawed. We're all dying to hear.

To be fair to Dann, he is mostly correct, but he does need to chill.

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And yes V, I have needed a gun to save my life in the past, though not in this country, and certainly not in the context that we are discussing.
However, I know the shityourpantsohfuck feeling that occurs and that it is indeed possible to show good judgement and restraint. It is also worth noting that situational awareness played more a part in my survival than pulling the trigger.
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Old 06-02-2015, 01:11 PM   #48
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See, I can respect that
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Old 06-02-2015, 01:13 PM   #49
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<p>
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post
In fact, I do know, and I'm working on getting one myself because of how frequently I like to visit. It is interesting how low your gun homicide rate is, especially compared to neighboring California. It is easier in Indiana, and the permit lasts a lifetime with no need to renew. It is still a process, and those responsible enough to go through it and follow the law are generally responsible people who get training and actually practice shooting. I frequently help a buddy out in his gun-store, and almost every new shooter asks where they can take classes. If they don't, we politely suggest that they do and offer an on the spot safety lesson.
</p><p>I think I figured Oregon out. We have incredibly lax gun laws, but ridiculously overbearing alcohol laws. Its like years ago they were like, &quot;well ****, it turns out booze and guns don't always mix well together, we should probably control one. *flips coin*, Alcohol it is!&quot;</p>
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Old 06-02-2015, 01:17 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
<p></p><p>I think I figured Oregon out. We have incredibly lax gun laws, but ridiculously overbearing alcohol laws. Its like years ago they were like, &quot;well ****, it turns out booze and guns don't always mix well together, we should probably control one. *flips coin*, Alcohol it is!&quot;</p>


Yes, Indiana is very lax, but you can't buy alcohol on Sunday.
Maybe there's something to that.
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Old 06-02-2015, 01:48 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
It's amazing the way some of you will try to read deeper into a statement than necessary in order to try to make a point.

I'm not suggesting you won't have ANY problems.

If you're justified in shooting someone, legally (not necessarily morally), than you won't have much of an issue - that was my point.

Zimmerman had issues because it wasn't clear cut and he could have avoided the situation by not following the kid.
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Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
It's like you guys lack 5th grade reading comprehension.

I'm bowing out.
Its not that I lack reading comprehension or am trying to argue for the sake of arguing but it really bothers me when people say "you'll be just fine" if it was a good shooting. That is such bullshit if the scenario isn't perfect and even if it is you still get fucked sometimes. I am pro-gun and CCW but it is important for people to understand the complete consequences before they take action and have a clear understanding of what might happen. I don't want some idiot on this forum to read your statement and regurgitate false information to someone else. SamNavy even pointed out that the aftermath can be very messy. To further support my argument I will give you three examples.

Carl Kozlosky was a 53-year-old Cleveland Ohio man.

While on an all night crack binge, a convicted murderer broke down Kozlosky's back door and began beating his girlfriend. Kozlosky shot the man with a .38 caliber revolver.

Even though he acted in defense, he was convicted of murder and sentenced to 18 years to life. It took two years for the verdict to be overturned and another year for Kozlosky to be released on a $10,000 bond.

Cleveland murder conviction of Carl Kozlosky reversed by appeals court - newsnet5.com Cleveland

ay Rodney Lewis was a 49- year-old former law enforcement officer in Iowa with a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

While driving home one night, he was confronted by two men, one a drunk, convicted felon.

After using his gun in self defense, Lewis was arrested and jailed with bond set at $225,000. A jury found that he acted appropriately, but he spent 112 days in jail, lost his job and all his possessions, and found himself homeless and penniless.

Stand Your Ground, Lose Everything(home defense)

Harold Fish was a 57-year-old retired high school teacher in Arizona with a clean record and a license to carry a concealed weapon.

While hiking, a man charged him, waving his arms and threatening to kill him. Harold Fish shot the man in self defense.

A jury found him guilty of second degree murder and he spent 3 years in prison and half a million dollars in legal fees before the conviction was reversed.

Trail of evidence - Dateline NBC - Crime reports - Trail of Evidence | NBC News

But you know......you'll be totally fine in a self-defense shooting and nothing bad will happen because our legal system never makes mistakes.

This of course, is also completely ignoring the wrongful death suit the family is going to file that has a much lower burden of proof, preponderance of the evidence, that might land you in eternal debt. Not to mention any local or national backlash depending on the specific case. But again, don't worry, if it was a justified shooting you'll be fine and you have nothing to worry about.
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Old 06-02-2015, 01:50 PM   #52
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Maybe that's why California's gun laws suck so bad? Because we can get booze erryehwere!

My biggest issue with CA's CCW laws is that it once you have one it covers the entire state, but its up to the SHERIFF in your COUNTY OF RESIDENCE to set the entire process and rules for acquisition. If your Sheriff is an ******* you are completely boned. Counties like San Diego and San Francisco refuse to issue, Monterey County just went from "terrible process" to "good ol' boys club" and NorCal counties like Siskayou, Butte, Modoc, Plumas, etc all have decent Sheriffs and therefore decent CCW processes.

Its a big god damn unfair mess. I'm not a proponent of big government but I do support the CCW process being taken over by the state and standardized.

Here, enjoy the madness:
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Big gun-rights win in TEXAS... Open Carry and Campus Carry-conceal-carry-map-california1.png  
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Old 06-02-2015, 02:03 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Maybe that's why California's gun laws suck so bad? Because we can get booze erryehwere!

My biggest issue with CA's CCW laws is that it once you have one it covers the entire state, but its up to the SHERIFF in your COUNTY OF RESIDENCE to set the entire process and rules for acquisition. If your Sheriff is an ******* you are completely boned. Counties like San Diego and San Francisco refuse to issue, Monterey County just went from "terrible process" to "good ol' boys club" and NorCal counties like Siskayou, Butte, Modoc, Plumas, etc all have decent Sheriffs and therefore decent CCW processes.

Its a big god damn unfair mess. I'm not a proponent of big government but I do support the CCW process being taken over by the state and standardized.

Here, enjoy the madness:
What I learned from this map is that California has a YOLO county.
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Old 06-02-2015, 02:08 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Here's a question: How many here have ever had their life legitimately threatened to the point of 100% needing a firearm?
I have never felt the need to draw my gun. But I'm not sure you know what you're asking. If your life is "threatened", ie, somebody is presenting you with "great bodily harm", then by legal definition, you are justified in using lethal force against him. I would also argue that you have the moral obligation to defend yourself with as much force as required. However, if you read up on the lawful presentation of a firearm, you don't need to be "in fear for your life" to present a firearm. Which is to say, drawing your weapon introduces a variable the bad guy might not have anticipated or be willing to continue the encounter over, thereby never getting to the point of "in fear for your life". This situation is the majority of daily instances where a firearm saves a life. Exact numbers can never be known because of underreporting, but there have been studies and they all say the same things about how often a "good guy with a gun" wins... and most of those end up without a shot fired.

Quote:
Here's another one, this is from a distant relative of mine, who is currently in prison:

stupid crackhead "homeboys" come over to threaten him over some dumb argument they got into. one of them pulls a gun to "de-escalate" the situation. said relative snatches it out of his hands, it goes off, he murders the homeboy on accident.
he's in for 7 years, after an insane amount of court and all sorta stuff, proving that he did in fact do all of this in self defense.
I guess it's an isolated "CA problem"?
You don't murder somebody on accident... murder by definition is intentional. Manslaughter is an accident and negligent homicide falls somewhere in between. However, I want to talk about normal everyday law-abiding and peaceful citizens with a sincere interest in lawful self-defense with legally owned firearms doing their best to avoid trouble. If you want to cling to a few random examples of what happens when scumbag people do to eachother what they do best to justify your "guns don't help" position, then by all means.

I feel it necessary to mention that part of my in-depth self-defense plan is to avoid any kind of trouble at all times. I don't go into dark alleys, I don't associate with drug users, I don't use hole-in-the-wall gas stations in the middle of nowhere, and I certainly don't associate with crackheads. In other words, I think I'm like most people.

I also don't spend every waking moment on "hi-alert" assuming everybody I come across is trying to kill me. Maybe it's a bit of military training, or observing my father for a couple decades, or just plain'old street-smarts... but I like to think I can see trouble coming and I go the other direction.

Quote:
Zimmerman had issues because it wasn't clear cut and he could have avoided the situation by not following the kid.
You can argue all day long whether he should have followed the kid... completely irrelevant to what by all accounts was an ambush followed by a righteous self-defense shooting. The girlfiend all but said that the kid had made it home to his porch and then went back looking for him. ****, there's tons of speculation that the girlfriend told him he was a ***** if he didn't go find him and kick his ***. Anyways... where Zimmerman made his mistake was in talking to the police. If he had simply said "I was attacked, he was trying to kill me, and I fired in self defense... and now I'd like some medical attention for my wounds, but don't want to say anything else until tomorrow after I've talked with a lawyer... I'm sure you police officers understand"... then there would have been zero story.

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its up to the SHERIFF in your COUNTY OF RESIDENCE to set the entire process and rules for acquisition.
Be patient friend... Peruta was almost the golden ticket. Peruta may still be pending the follow-on hearing in the 9th. It gets better every year. The anti's know they will lose on "good cause" court cases every time. Judge Scullin is holding DC's feet to the fire on what is essentially "shall issue"... CA will come around at some point.
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Old 06-02-2015, 02:21 PM   #55
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Its a big god damn unfair mess. I'm not a proponent of big government but I do support the CCW process being taken over by the state and standardized.
Missed this on my first read... I don't think you do. The California legislature will be a Democratic supermajority for the foreseeable future, yes? Do you want that kind of "standardization"? At least currently, the process is governed by locally elected officials that most people don't see as "Democrat" or "Republican". County Sheriffs can campaign on topics that don't have anything to do with left or right. I'd love to see a few of the right people run for Sheriff in the red counties with a major part of their ticket being "shall issue" and see what happens. I don't know if that's happening now.

And to be clear about Peruta... there was zero impact to the laws of the State Of California. The only impact was to the official or unofficial approving criteria for individual County Sheriffs in that "Self Defense" could no longer be denied as "good cause". Most people think that Peruta caused California legal code (at the state level) to change, which is false. This is why the 9th initially refused Harris (Cali Attorney General) standing to add anything to the case during the usual motions to dismiss or stay after the verdict was read, because it didn't affect State law directly. Now that Peruta will he heard enbanc by the 9th, we have to wait longer for the final word... the jury is still out on how that plays.
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Old 06-02-2015, 02:22 PM   #56
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Regarding the possibility of civil suits after a justified shooting -- MS state law disallows civil suits if cleared of criminal wrongdoing in a self defense scenario.
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Old 06-02-2015, 02:53 PM   #57
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What I learned from this map is that California has a YOLO county.
And I live very close to it
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Old 06-02-2015, 02:56 PM   #58
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Every time a selfie with the "Now Entering Yolo County" sign comes up in my Facebook feed, someone gets unfriended.
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Old 06-02-2015, 04:55 PM   #59
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84(R) SB 11 - Enrolled version - Bill Text

This is the actual text of the law that the Governor will sign.

Here is the carve-out for private universities:
Quote:
(e) A private or independent institution of higher
education in this state, after consulting with students, staff, and
faculty of the institution, may establish rules, regulations, or
other provisions prohibiting license holders from carrying
handguns on the campus of the institution, any grounds or building
on which an activity sponsored by the institution is being
conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle owned by the
institution.
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Old 06-02-2015, 06:30 PM   #60
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In my locksmith van I have a couple safes. A drop safe and a gun safe. I've been held up by knife twice. Each time I have gone to the gun safe and they thought they were getting some sweet cash only to have my barrel in their face.

I no longer am a locksmith partially for my safety but also because of the awful hours. I got sick of being caught in between some nasty split ups...having a pissed husband in my face after he randomly shows up and his wife is changing the locks on him. People not taking care of their vicious pets, getting threatened, robbed for trying to help people.

Could I have done without the gun? probably... but you know it did give me comfort and helped me defuse my situations.

For all I know I could have been stabbed after I gave my money. Yeah I was lucky they didn't have guns but either way In my situation they didn't have "bigger" weapons.

btw I hardly ever carry anymore now that i'm in a different field. I'm not some huge gun fanatic. It was simply a safety mechanism for my situation.
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