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Old 05-05-2010, 11:28 PM   #141
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[email protected] complaining about illegals stealing their jobs. You can't compete with a guy that doesn't speak English and has a maybe 6th grade education?
Guess what? No, you cant compete with someone who will do the same job for less than you need to get by. How wonderful for the illegal that he gets to do hard work for half what some other guy makes. Way to stand up for him. And how wonderful for the guy who has commited the unforgivable sin of living in this country with his family and needing to pay that mortgage and all.

Maybe if we had an actual system in place, a fair market would exist. But we dont, which means that employers get to basically screw over the illegals who have to take what they can get. In other words, your wonderful 'free market' is one where you dont have a balance between supply and demand. Way too much supply, meaning the commodity (a human ******* being in this case) is either devalued or gone.

And frankly your arrogance regarding some of these jobs smacks of another East coaster who thinks he is middle class when in fact he's a rich more than someone from TX. Picking apples is not a 10 dollar an hour job. Operating heavy equipment, doing decent cement work, plumbing, electrical, paint, machine work, carpentry? Takes skill, and its hard work. Believe it or not, a lot of these supposedly unskilled, dumb illegals are pretty smart and skilled. As opposed to Mr. Manuel Labor that most people seem to picture.


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You want to stop illegal immigration with a wall? Or by checking people's papers? 's

"Let's just shoot em at the border!" Good luck with that. You got nothing on these guys or this wall:

And you know how successful they were. People find a way.

Quick, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!", that wasn't just a speech against the evils of Communism, he was talking about Oppression as well.
I did not realize that Mexico is starving and had a past of forcing people into collective farming resulting in the death of millions.


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The idea that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes is laughable. This is to ignore the fact that they pay almost every other tax except for income, ss (which they don't qualify for) and medicaid (also don't qualify for). They pay sales tax (local/state funding) and property taxes (which pays for education in TX). You want them to pay income tax then don't make it a crime to report the income. Also, the businesses pay their Income Taxes which are a function of their prosperity (and probably higher if they are paying employees under the table).
...except when they are paid in cash....except when a ton of the cash is sent back over the border rather than spent here....except when they dont own property at all...and I am sure companies paying people depressed wages under the table rather than decent wages to people who do actualy pay taxes and spend the cash localy is a huge economic boost....for Western Union anyway.


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So then it comes down to SS, let's say they give them a invalid SSN to get hired. They'll never collect that SS and yet they are paying the tax. You really complaining about that?
Yeah, someone's ID got stolen. I do have a problem with that. It can really fuckup someones life unfairly.


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So then it's down to Medical Care? Our system is so jacked up (even more so now) and the illegal immigrants are the ones ruining it for everyone else? Sure. You go look at the type of medical care they get (the bare minimum) and then you tell me they are putting one by on the system. BTW not treating a patient in need is unethical in any country regardless of immigration.
Go take a look at medical facilities in any of the border states. "putting one over?" Nope, but costing piles of cash? Yeah. Sorry that the truth does not workj for you, but lame generalizations dont make it all better. By the way, no medial professional I have ever known would refuse care, and nobody is putting anything forward I have seen to that effect. Which is sort of the point. Medical care is being delivered and it does cost money. Maybe if immigrants were not getting dragged over in the backs of non-ventilated U-Hauls by drug feinds with guns they would not need ER care as much. Might be nice for them. I dont particularly like my fate being in the hands of doped out half-assed slave traders personally.

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So then there's the violence and crime. Most of the violence and crime that is blamed on illegal immigrants has is drug-related. The easiest answer for both countries would be to legalize all drugs and I don't completely understand why Mexico hasn't unilaterally done so.
Have you ever actually been in a bad area? Like without being stoned? Honestly? Have you seen what a homeless man on meth with absolutely no higher cognitive function and a bad temper will do?

So let me see if this is correct: The drugs are at least related to the violence. So lets make the drugs more available. Great solution.

Incidentaly, a lot of the violence just might stem from the fact that you have desperate people with little to no cash in an unfamiliar land with a fair amount of hostile people around. Allowing businesses to pay the absolute market minimum is probably not going to help that.

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Seems like the hardcore Conservatives would also be for this, keeping the Government out of your life by legalizing all drugs. Hell, then they could tax em. Take a trip down memory lane and visit Prohibition versus post-Prohibition.

Or is this simply a case of Conservatives thinking that this is a good enough reason to stop someone from hurting themselves and therefor(e) mandates that the Government interfere? Ohh the irony.
If you are expecting anyone in here to defend the right-wingers in DC than you have mis-read this place even more than I thought, which is actually quite a feat. **** the Republicans.

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Another economic long-term goal is growth, correct? What happens when your birthrate continues to decline? You have a dwindling youth supporting an aging population. This is already happening in Japan, which has a small physical barrier to easy immigration as well; ""One major long-term concern for the Japanese labour force is a low birthrate. In the first half of 2005, the number of deaths in Japan exceeded the number of births, indicating that the decline in population, initially predicted to start in 2007, had already started. While one countermeasure for a declining birthrate would be to remove barriers to immigration, the Japanese government has been reluctant to do so." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_economy

Retiring Baby Boomers + less immigration = a declining US Economy. This is not really the long term economic model I'd like to see.
So the model you would 'like to see' is one where people are exploited as labor with pretty much 0 protection against abuse. That really jives well with your picture there. And in terms of pure economics, I dont think having a huge portion of the population grow old without proper medical care or retirement benefits is a good idea. What do we do then? Invade Canada?

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And lastly, the biggest argument against Arizona's BS law and stupid/knee-jerk anti-immigration rhetoric is this:

How patriotic. Dude, the fact that AZ has done something stupid doesnt make any of your ideas worth pursuing.

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So in conclusion, we are a nation of immigrants, like it or not (ask your local Native American if not). We need a well thought out immigration policy that maintains an easy flow of capital and labor to the markets that it will be most efficient in. Knee-jerk reactionary political-pandering laws do not accomplish this.

Chris

BTW I don't condone illegally entering the country but I would do it if I was stuck on the other side of the border.
You do condone it, and you just explained why. No **** we are a nation of immigrants. Maybe this time around we can also improve on histroy and not exploiting said people quite so much. The only thing in here I agree with a sensible legal immigration policy. One that does not allow for the lowest possible wages would be a nice start.

Last edited by Sparetire; 05-05-2010 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:38 PM   #142
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Guess what? No, you cant compete with someone who will do the same job for less than you need to get by. How wonderful for the illegal that he gets to do hard work for half what some other guy makes. Way to stand up for him. And how wonderful for the guy who has commited the unforgivable sin of living in this country with his family and needing to pay that mortgage and all.
Apparently you don't know what you are talking about. $10/hr is not half of what some other guy makes for manual labor. They might take skill, but they aren't "skilled" labor, and at least in the SE, none of them pay more than ~$10 +/- $2. I worked as a machine operator for years and only made about $11/hr, and that is considered about average for the area. Most of the jobs I have seen Mexicans in have been carpentry, landscaping, brick laying and roofing, none of which are "skilled" labor. Any Mexican I have worked with has made fair wages, same as "some other guy" makes.

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You do condone it, and you just explained why. No **** we are a nation of immigrants. Maybe this time around we can also improve on histroy and exploiting said people quite so much. The only thing in here I agree with a sensible legal immigration policy. One that does not allow for the lowest possible wages would be a nice start.
They wouldn't be exploited if they were here legally. When you don't exist on paper, it's tough **** when you get fucked.

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Old 05-05-2010, 11:44 PM   #143
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[email protected] complaining about illegals stealing their jobs. You can't compete with a guy that doesn't speak English and has a maybe 6th grade education?
I'm not complaining about illegals stealing MY job. But there are less educated individuals out there who try to compete with illegals, and that is what I have a problem with.

Most of the people who employ illegals know Spanish, so the language barrier isn't a valid argument. Everything in the border states is written in both languages anyways.
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:44 PM   #144
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Apparently you don't know what you are talking about. $10/hr is not half of what some other guy makes for manual labor. They might take skill, but they aren't "skilled" labor, and at least in the SE, none of them pay more than ~$10 +/- $2. I worked as a machine operator for years and only made about $11/hr, and that is considered about average for the area. Most of the jobs I have seen Mexicans in have been carpentry, landscaping, brick laying and roofing, none of which are "skilled" labor. Any Mexican I have worked with has made fair wages, same as "some other guy" makes.
Read it again. Picking apples is not a 10 dollar an hour job as I said. But lots of other jobs are, and people ought to be paid accordingly.
Were the Mexicans here legaly? Good. Does machine operator translate to machinist. If so then you got fucked.

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They wouldn't be exploited if they were here legally. When you don't exist on paper, it's tough **** when you get fucked.

Exactly.
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:53 PM   #145
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Read it again. Picking apples is not a 10 dollar an hour job as I said. But lots of other jobs are, and people ought to be paid accordingly.
Were the Mexicans here legaly? Good. Does machine operator translate to machinist. If so then you got fucked.
??? No, machine operator a in heavy equipment. Like I said, all of the Mexicans I have worked along with have all been paid fairly, and none of them were exploited. Not to say it doesn't happen, but again, if they were legal like every other worker, they might get treated more fairly by those who would take advantage of them, and they would also have protection of laws. But when you have no paperwork, and technically don't exist, it's hard to get fair wages and representation. But the ones I worked with, I couldn't really say for sure if they were legal or not. Assuming makes me an ***, but I would have to assume most were not.
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:30 AM   #146
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Bingo. Thats why a workable system to allow people in is probably the only real solution. They dont get screwed, we dont get screwed. No good system in place gets us what we have now. Lettng everyone in basically screws half the working people and also poses a threat to basic order. And while I am pretty biased toward minimal gov oversight of pretty much everything, at some point you have stop maintaining ideological putirty and get real. People are not a commodity like lumber or wheat, and you do have to have certain basic protections. Just because some guy is slow does not mean that he should be unable make a livable wage in exchange for working his *** off, even if his job is not a MD or something. As a machine operator you made 10 bucks/hr more or less, which was not exactly the stuff of dreams but you can get a meal and roof for that in your area. This is the whole idea of the minimum wage. Open the floodgates and abolish that minimum wage and watch a lot of jobs pay 3 bucks an hour. You will then get a wonderful transient population who have little to loose by going to jail and not much hope of ever getting into a better situation. Hooray for pure capitalism.
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Old 05-06-2010, 02:13 AM   #147
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I guess I agree with you there.
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:49 AM   #148
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[email protected] complaining about illegals stealing their jobs. You can't compete with a guy that doesn't speak English and has a maybe 6th grade education?
With a minimum wage increase and mandated, taxed healthcare...well, the labor market doesn't want to pay that. When I worked for the same federal agency I work for now I made $9.75 per hour. While I was in Santa Fe I made this amount and its remarkable to consider that minimum wage was $9.92 per hour...with a mandated health benefits package. Do you think that's reasonable for a skilled, educated employee managing several million dollars to make the same wage as the person cleaning the hotel room? If that wage were not mandated, I'd praise the company and the employee...but its not.

Its easy to say Americans don't want jobs that illegals pay, but when you consider the market demand, mandated wage rates, and a brutal recession it makes sense to say "Americans don't want the jobs illegals assume" because the market can't support the mandated minimum wage.

As for illegals recieving the bare minimum...they recieve the bare minimum through the "indigent" classification wich is most likely obtained through a lack of documented income and the care is a charity afforded by the free-market health-care system.

Naturalize illegal aliens, let them pay taxes, and I will applaud every one that "takes a job" from the American trash which lives off extended welfare benefits. $12,000,000,000.00 deficit means its time to get real rather than bankroll Mexico's poor.
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:53 AM   #149
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This is the whole idea of the minimum wage. Open the floodgates and abolish that minimum wage and watch a lot of jobs pay 3 bucks an hour. You will then get a wonderful transient population who have little to loose by going to jail and not much hope of ever getting into a better situation. Hooray for pure capitalism.
Pick any Katrina colony in the nation...we already have these people. Stroll through the US/Mexico border and you'll see the transient worker groups. Stroll through McAllen, TX and you'll ask why the US never built a wall. Stroll through el Paso and you'll get to hear about contract killing and black-mail murder.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...040303141.html
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:07 PM   #150
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Exactly what about the word "illegal" do some people not ******* get? Enough with the ***** *** excuse "this country was built by immigrants"...yeah and how many of them went through Ellis Island to become part of this country? How many of them were rafting their happy asses over here and just ploping their *** on US soil and goign to work without any documentation? So stop with that bullshit "argument"...you simply cannot expect that **** to stand.

Yeah, so they pay a little sales tax...but what about everything else that I have to pay? When living here illegally, you can abuse the system all you want will little to no reprecussion. Need to go to the hospital? Fine..get treated, give them a false ID and never have to pay ****...it's not like anyone will ever go after them to force money out of them. Get arrested? Just wait to get out and never come back to face a judge or pay your fine. Try that as a US citizen and you lose your license, pay a **** huge fine and go to jail for failure to appear. What about all of them driving with no license or insurance? Every single time I have to drive through an area with a higher 'immigrant' population I have to get super-defensive with my driving because majority of them have little reguard for following simple driving laws.

And speaking of this country catering to them over others- A particular part of a particular road (Buford Highway to the others from GA, who will understand this) has such a problem....an epidemic if you will...of non-English speaking people running across a 5 lane road and getting killed that the GADOT spent $3 million on adding lit cross-walks, signals, street lighting and signage on a 3-mile section of road. Guess what? They completely ignore it and still get flattened like frogger.....by other illegals. Yet the GADOT could have spent that money on countless other projects that would benefit the people that actually contribute to the DOT's funds.

Don't naturalize them just because they are here. Send their asses back and make them come do it the right way, through the same processes that everyone else ever has. But even then, they'll still be forking billions of dollars over the border that will never be spent here.

And yes, it is easy for me to generalize about people in specific areas where I live..especially when you can see the masses of them just "hanging out" waiting to be picked up for odd jobs. There are places around Atlanta that you'd think would be on the Mexican border.
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:14 PM   #151
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I HERBY ANNOUNCE THAT I SUPPORT:

Drug runners; armed coyotes; drop houses; extradition; forced labor; forced prostitution of illegals; murder of Arizona citizens on their own property; assault on law enforcement officers.

That is all.
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:16 PM   #152
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$12,000,000,000.00 deficit means its time to get real rather than bankroll Mexico's poor.

don't let the greeks hear that.
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Old 05-06-2010, 02:39 PM   #153
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I HERBY ANNOUNCE THAT I SUPPORT:

Drug runners; armed coyotes; drop houses; extradition; forced labor; forced prostitution of illegals; murder of Arizona citizens on their own property; assault on law enforcement officers.

That is all.
Don't forget- tax evasion, organized gang crime, and the punishment of border patrol agents who try to actually protect our borders.
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Old 05-06-2010, 02:42 PM   #154
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yes I support all these things.

I would rather protect illegal immigrants' supposed "legal rights" than protect the natural and compact rights of the state citizens, governments and societies.
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Old 05-06-2010, 03:17 PM   #155
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I think the border would be a great place for the Army (or Marines/Navy/AF)to train and occupy time when not in war. Can you say live fire exercise? After the triple 7s start falling I guarantee no one crosses. Can't count the times those things saved my life.. literally.
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Old 05-06-2010, 03:49 PM   #156
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Pick any Katrina colony in the nation...we already have these people. Stroll through the US/Mexico border and you'll see the transient worker groups. Stroll through McAllen, TX and you'll ask why the US never built a wall. Stroll through el Paso and you'll get to hear about contract killing and black-mail murder.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...040303141.html
No kidding. Last I checked we have about 4 million people incarcerated at any given moment, which is more than 1% of the population. Which we pay to feed, house, guard, process, train, etc. Imagine if that were to increase even 20%. Not to mention that a huge portion of those in jail are 1) nonviolent and 2) of an age where they should be working and paying taxes as opposed to living off them.

I lived on Gilbert RD in Mesa AZ, just south of the 60 for a year. I could go 5 lights North on Gilbert to say Broadway or so and pickup a dozen illegal workmen in about 15 minutes. I know exactly what you mean.
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:09 PM   #157
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I posted some stats before, but here:


The latest telephone poll taken by the Arizona Governor's office asked whether people who live in Arizona think illegal immigration is a serious problem?
  • 29% responded, "Yes, it is a serious problem."
  • 71% responded, "No es una problema seriosa"

95 % of Warrants in Los Angeles are for Illegal Aliens

83 % of Warrants for Murder in Phoenix Arizona are FOR Illegal Aliens

86 % of Warrants for Murder in Albuquerque New Mexico are for Illegal Aliens

75 % of those on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix, Albuquerque are Illegal Aliens

24.9 % Of All Inmates in California detention centers are Mexican Nationals here Illegally

40.1 % of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican Nationals here Illegally

29 % (630,000) Convicted ILLEGAL ALIENS felons fill our state and federal prisons at the cost of $1.5

Crime Billion Annually

53 % Plus of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and Texas are perpertrated by illegal aliens

50 % Plus of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens

71 % Plus of all apprehended Cars stolden in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, and California were stolden by illegal aliens or "transport Coyotes"

47 % of cited / stopped Drivers in California have NO License, NO Insurance, and No Registration for the vehicle of that 47 %, over 92 % were Illegal Aliens

63 % of cited / stopped Drivers in Arizona have NO License, NO Insurance, and No Registration for the vehicle of that 63 %, over 97 % are Illegal Aliens

66 % of cited / stopped Drivers in New Mexico have NO License, NO Insurance, and No Registration for the vehicle Of that 66 %, over 98 % were Illegal Aliens

Births

380,000 Plus "Anchor Babies" were born in the U.S. in 2005 to illegal alien parents, making 380,000 babies automatically U.S. Citizens 97.2% of all costs incurred from those births were paid for by American taxpayers.

66 % OF all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid by taxpayers
Illegal immigration Housing
300,000 plus illegal aliens in Los Angeles Country are living in garages

Nearly 60 % of all occupants of HUD properties in the United States are illegal aliens.

Illegal immigration TV & Radio Stations

14 out of 31 TV stations in L.C. are Spanish only

16 out of 28 TV stations in Phoenix are Spanish only

15 out of 24 TV stations in Albuquerque are Spanish only

21 radio stations in Los Angeles are Spanish only

17 radio stations in Los Angeles are Spanish only

17 radio stations in Albuquerque are Spanish only

Illegal immigration Schools

34% plus of Arizona students in grades 1-12 are illegal aliens and 24% plus are non-English speaking

39% plus of California students in grades 1-12 are illegal aliens and 42% plus are non-English speaking

In Los Angeles County, 5.1 million people speak English - 3.9 million speak Spanish

Illegal immigration Social Services

43 % of all Food Stamps issued are to illegal aliens

41 % of all Unemployment Checks in the United States are to illegal aliens

58 % of all Welfare payments in the United States are issued to illegal aliens

Less than 2 % of illegal aliens are picking crops but 41 % are on welfare

Illegal immigration Population

Over 70% of the U.S. annual population growth (and over 90% of CA, FL, and NY) results from immigration

Employer Profits

The estimated profit to U.S. corporations and businesses employing illegal aliens in 2005 was more than 2.36 trillion

Illegal immigration Taxes

62 % of all "undocumented immigrants" in the U.S. are working for cash and not paying taxes, predominantly illegal aliens are working without a green card

The cost of immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 (last known calculation by Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University) was a NET (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay), $70 Billion per year. What are the 2006 costs?

The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average illegal alien is $55,000 cost to the American taxpayer in a 5-year span. You personally pay $11,000 every year to illegal aliens.

JOBS (per Center for Immigration Studies - September 2006): Between 2000 and 2005, 4.1 million immigrant workers arrived in the U.S., accounting for 86% of the net increase in the total number of employed persons (16 & older), the highest share ever recorded in the U.S. Of the 4.1 million, between 1.4 and 2.7 million are estimated to be illegal aliens. Also, between 2000 and 2005, the number of young (16 to 34) native-born men employed declined by 1.7 million - at the same time, the number of new male immigrant workers increased by 1.9 million.
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:15 PM   #158
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Exactly what about the word "illegal" do some people not ******* get?
All of it apparently. That little word is my only real issue with any of this crap. Come in legally, or worst case scenario, find a way to make all of those illegals suddenly "legal" and I would have no more complaints. When else does the government accept something illegal. So far it seems like on this issue most of them just don't care, or are too dumbfounded to do anything about the issue.
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:26 PM   #159
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All of it apparently. That little word is my only real issue with any of this crap. Come in legally, or worst case scenario, find a way to make all of those illegals suddenly "legal" and I would have no more complaints. When else does the government accept something illegal. So far it seems like on this issue most of them just don't care, or are too dumbfounded to do anything about the issue.
EXACTLY

It's all about accountability.

If you're here legally, you are accountable to pay taxes, appear in court, abide by the rest of our laws, be financially responsible, and hopefully a productive part of our society.

You are also afforded the comfort of full rights, and unlimited opportunities.

Truth of the matter is most of the illegals don't care to be held accountable. They like things just the way they are regardless of what Katie dumbbitch Couric tells you.
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:32 PM   #160
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I posted some stats before, but here:


The latest telephone poll taken by the Arizona Governor's office asked whether people who live in Arizona think illegal immigration is a serious problem?
  • 29% responded, "Yes, it is a serious problem."
  • 71% responded, "No es una problema seriosa"

95 % of Warrants in Los Angeles are for Illegal Aliens

83 % of Warrants for Murder in Phoenix Arizona are FOR Illegal Aliens

86 % of Warrants for Murder in Albuquerque New Mexico are for Illegal Aliens

75 % of those on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix, Albuquerque are Illegal Aliens

24.9 % Of All Inmates in California detention centers are Mexican Nationals here Illegally

40.1 % of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican Nationals here Illegally

29 % (630,000) Convicted ILLEGAL ALIENS felons fill our state and federal prisons at the cost of $1.5
When warrants are served for an illegal alien, are they deported? Maybe this is the "enforcement" the AZ law spoke of, instead of the "DUI-checkpoint" style made popular on television.
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