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Old 07-03-2014, 08:17 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaWaN View Post
Thanks for sharing the product number of the ignition module.

The Bosch datasheet clearly states it needs 10mA minimum for proper operation.

Example schematic of Bosch:
This circuit will invert the logic. An "emitter follower" is a better circuit.

One part. (Delete the resistor)

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[Solved] FAB9 CoP spark blowout-transistor_emitter_follower.gif  
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Old 07-03-2014, 09:12 PM   #82
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This is getting even more silly.

MSPNP Gen2 v1.3 can source 220mA on each ignition output. If each channel on a Bosch 211 requires 10mA to trigger, then the MSPNP from a single spark output can trigger 22 Bosch 211 ignition channels simultaneously. You are trying to trigger 2 channels simultaneously.

No further line driver or buffer circuit necessary. It's already there.

The fact that you can saturate the coil to the point of current limiting proves that the ECU is able to trigger the module.

Bosch 211 and 124 modules are used ALL THE TIME with MegaSquirt.
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Old 07-03-2014, 09:17 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
This circuit will invert the logic. An "emitter follower" is a better circuit.
We have a slightly more sophisticated version of this already in the box.
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Old 07-03-2014, 09:46 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FAB View Post
Dillon (Erat) owns the car we tested a handful of different modules on without changing results.
Same questions still apply. What was the voltage? What was the dwell? Surely you were not testing ignition systems without scoping primary voltage and current vs dwell.

What is the resistance and inductance of the coil's primary? What is the resistance and inductance of the secondary?
What is the turns ratio?

Are these CDI or inductive coils?
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Old 07-09-2014, 07:40 AM   #85
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i wish i would have stumbled across this thread 3 weeks ago. id have an extra 300 bucks :(

Last edited by trikchop; 07-09-2014 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 07-09-2014, 11:18 PM   #86
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I'm now on MS2/extra 3.3.2. Not that it matters but its info.

Here's data on the module.
http://www.useasydocs.com/Bosch_0227..._datasheet.pdf
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Old 07-11-2014, 10:41 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Impuls View Post
I'm now on MS2/extra 3.3.2. Not that it matters but its info.

Here's data on the module.
http://www.useasydocs.com/Bosch_0227..._datasheet.pdf
It matters not. The datasheet for a Bosch 211 module is also not needed, as this module is common enough. Answers to the below questions is what's needed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Same questions still apply. What was the voltage? What was the dwell? Surely you were not testing ignition systems without scoping primary voltage and current vs dwell.

What is the resistance and inductance of the coil's primary? What is the resistance and inductance of the secondary?
What is the turns ratio?

Are these CDI or inductive coils?
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Old 07-11-2014, 11:18 AM   #88
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We didn't scope, we were simply looking to eliminate the possibility of a faulty module.

Primary 1.5 -/+
Secondary 13.3

They are inductive. Denso doesn't release datasheets on their coils for unknown reasons so I don't know the turns ratio - it is indeed inductive though if that's why you were asking.

I've produced a harness and sent it to Impuls for testing. I will no longer be updating this thread. A lot of the information here has been helpful but it's in my best interest to work with a single electrical engineer opposed to 6-7. I greatly appreciate those of you who have helped out. If you have further questions please PM me.

Cheers,
Bryan
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Old 07-11-2014, 11:27 AM   #89
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I'm assuming those figures are primary and secondary resistance? Is that 1.5 ohms and 13.3K ohms, respectively? What about inductance? What is the Denso p/n or OE application for the coil? I have better access than most.



Quote:
Originally Posted by FAB View Post
We didn't scope, we were simply looking to eliminate the possibility of a faulty module.

Primary 1.5 -/+
Secondary 13.3

They are inductive. Denso doesn't release datasheets on their coils for unknown reasons so I don't know the turns ratio - it is indeed inductive though if that's why you were asking.

I've produced a harness and sent it to Impuls for testing. I will no longer be updating this thread. A lot of the information here has been helpful but it's in my best interest to work with a single electrical engineer opposed to 6-7. I greatly appreciate those of you who have helped out. If you have further questions please PM me.

Cheers,
Bryan
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Old 07-11-2014, 11:57 AM   #90
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Would have been better if you sent a harness/coils to DIYAUTOTUNE so they could get it working with MS. and then continue to update the thread so once you have success you sell that many more.
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Old 07-11-2014, 12:21 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Would have been better if you sent a harness/coils to DIYAUTOTUNE so they could get it working with MS. and then continue to update the thread so once you have success you sell that many more.
I've shown that our spark outputs can source much more current than required to trigger a Bosch 211 module. I'm pretty confident that I understand the problem here, and it's not related to the MegaSquirt ECU. There are reports of this ignition system misfiring with Link and stock ECUs as well.

As I recall, I saw this problem sometime last year when I first saw the FAB kit and called it out then.
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Old 07-11-2014, 12:51 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Would have been better if you sent a harness/coils to DIYAUTOTUNE so they could get it working with MS. and then continue to update the thread so once you have success you sell that many more.
That would be great, although it's not their problem and their support on this thread has been a kind enough gesture by itself.

It all boils down to this: The kit performs very well on AEM units and doesn't on some MS. Unless you can specify other variables it sounds a lot like a difference in the spark output signals.. Right? My car produced over 400whp on the same exact kit I've shipped to over 300 customers. Although it's been said that the current from the MS is high enough to drive the 211 module, I have a customer that reported the following (running Megasquirt 2 on ms2extra):

"from running the numbers I only dwelling at 11mA which is probably not enough for running two coils off one channel."

At any rate I'd still like to approach the problem externally. I don't blame MS systems or any other for not driving the kit properly but it is a problem I need to solve, regardless.
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Old 07-11-2014, 03:31 PM   #93
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There is no "running the numbers" to determine the current of the spark output. It should be observed with an oscilloscope. MSPNP Gen2 V1.3 sources 220mA per ignition output, up to 440mA per channel if "wasted cop" is configured.

Bosch 211 requires 10mA per input to trigger.

Your misfires with MegaSquirt are caused by the same reason you have misfires with Link. Chasing a spark output signal problem won't fix it.
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Old 07-11-2014, 03:52 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
There is no "running the numbers" to determine the current of the spark output. It should be observed with an oscilloscope. MSPNP Gen2 V1.3 sources 220mA per ignition output, up to 440mA per channel if "wasted cop" is configured.

Bosch 211 requires 10mA per input to trigger.

Your misfires with MegaSquirt are caused by the same reason you have misfires with Link. Chasing a spark output signal problem won't fix it.
That's not true. The Link is a different issue all together. The Link ECU cooks the Bosch modules until they misfire. Before this happens the kit fires strong all the way through boost. The Bosch module requires a current limiting circuit and I'm under the impression the Link does not have it. This is why we specifically list that it's not compatible with Link.

Regardless... if it's not a difference in trigger... Why the success on AEM? Should we ignore this? I'm not an electrical engineer but it seems very logical to me that the difference is in the spark output signal.

Once again, I feel like this conversation is past the point of helpful or productive. I'm going to continue to pursue a harness that improves the signal and I'll report back. Thank you for your help.
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Old 07-16-2014, 05:36 PM   #95
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Old 07-16-2014, 06:18 PM   #96
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Was that a 25mph school zone?

Also, how fixed?
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Old 07-17-2014, 08:24 AM   #97
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Yeah what did you change?
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Old 07-17-2014, 12:40 PM   #98
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Oops sorry, been to busy enjoying the car and went to a Miata meet yesterday.
Just a revised part/module Bryan (FAB9) sent me new harness and two modules but I just swapped the old module first the test module 2 and it works.
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Old 07-17-2014, 12:52 PM   #99
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Thank you for the assistance, Impuls. I'm glad we were able to solve the problem so swiftly. For anyone experiencing the same issue with MS please contact me at [email protected] with your order number.

Cheers,
Bryan
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Old 07-22-2014, 11:46 AM   #100
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So what was it?
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