[Solved] FAB9 CoP spark blowout - Page 6 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 07-22-2014, 12:02 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
So what was it?
We worked with a supplier to find a module that would fire properly using a signal with less current. I ended up producing a buffer harness to send with the test modules but it wasn't needed. Which is a good thing because the harness production would have been a bit tedious.
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Old 07-22-2014, 12:21 PM   #102
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So the MS2 won't fire the originals despite the fact that it can source 220 mA? Doesn't compute.
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Old 07-22-2014, 12:39 PM   #103
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So the MS2 won't fire the originals despite the fact that it can source 220 mA? Doesn't compute.
Voodoo to me. I'm not an electrical engineer. I'm just happy to have found a sustainable solution that we can reproduce on all of the kits going forward.
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Old 07-22-2014, 01:08 PM   #104
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What's "a module"?
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Old 07-23-2014, 02:41 AM   #105
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I know is weird. But the second module works. Except(what we're trying to figure out now), if I've been driving around alot (module/coils gets hot/heatsoaked) I'll end up with spark blowout either exactly like what was happening before but only at full boost(chain of them sounding like launch control), or on full boost and random here and there (pop run pop run pop pop run).
My plugs did get pretty fouled from running rich (from my IAT incident)

I'm thinking about hooking my module to my tester and continually test it(heat soak it) if I can. Also maybe new plygs too, gapped down.

It may just be that I just need to get sequential ignition. But we're working in trying to fix it so FAB can supply a product anyone can use. But it seems having one the factory ecu can run and then those wanting +250hp is pretty complicated(at least those not having sequential ignition).

Ben/Matt, since I upgraded the firmware I noticed you guys have or have added a "Wasted CoP" setting option, what's the difference it offers because I'm using that now instead of just "Wasted".
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Old 07-23-2014, 08:53 AM   #106
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Ben/Matt, since I upgraded the firmware I noticed you guys have or have added a "Wasted CoP" setting option, what's the difference it offers because I'm using that now instead of just "Wasted".
Those guys didn't add anything; they don't write the MSextra code.

wasted cop fires 4 individual spark drivers in a wasted configuration.
wasted fires 2 coils, with two drivers, in a wasted configuration.
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Old 07-23-2014, 10:31 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Impuls View Post
I know is weird. But the second module works. Except(what we're trying to figure out now), if I've been driving around alot (module/coils gets hot/heatsoaked) I'll end up with spark blowout either exactly like what was happening before but only at full boost(chain of them sounding like launch control), or on full boost and random here and there (pop run pop run pop pop run).
My plugs did get pretty fouled from running rich (from my IAT incident)

I'm thinking about hooking my module to my tester and continually test it(heat soak it) if I can. Also maybe new plygs too, gapped down.

It may just be that I just need to get sequential ignition. But we're working in trying to fix it so FAB can supply a product anyone can use. But it seems having one the factory ecu can run and then those wanting +250hp is pretty complicated(at least those not having sequential ignition).

Ben/Matt, since I upgraded the firmware I noticed you guys have or have added a "Wasted CoP" setting option, what's the difference it offers because I'm using that now instead of just "Wasted".
Spark blow out from insufficient energy to jump the gap. Secondary ignition is more likely to fail with increased heat or cylinder pressure. Have you tried the stock ignition system?
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Old 07-23-2014, 10:41 AM   #108
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Quote:
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Ben/Matt, since I upgraded the firmware I noticed you guys have or have added a "Wasted CoP" setting option, what's the difference it offers because I'm using that now instead of just "Wasted".
Wasted-COP mode uses coil per plug outputs, but fires them in pairs. This is typically used for an engine that is wired for coil on plug, but either lacks a cam sensor (and hence can't actually run the coils sequentially) or doesn't have the wheel decoder 100% dialed in.

On a Miata with the stock CAS, using this takes up two more outputs but does not provide any upsides.
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Old 07-23-2014, 10:46 AM   #109
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Wasted-COP mode uses coil per plug outputs, but fires them in pairs. This is typically used for an engine that is wired for coil on plug, but either lacks a cam sensor (and hence can't actually run the coils sequentially) or doesn't have the wheel decoder 100% dialed in.

On a Miata with the stock CAS, using this takes up two more outputs but does not provide any upsides.
Further, you can set up a hardware based "wasted COP" output by following the directions I gave earlier in this thread. This will source to 440ma per each spark output channel (A and B). Whereas per the datasheets supplied earlier in this thread, the 211 module requires a mere 10ma current to trigger...

I'm not hopeful that it actually solves the problem you are experiencing. I think the problem is due to the low turns ratio design of using COPs intended for a motorcycle. I think you need a CDI module (and I would get a good one like M&W) or coils with a more appropriate turns ratio. The hottest coils are generally never coil on plug style -- they are coil NEAR plug style due to packaging problems. There is more to building an ignition system solution than being able to read a wiring diagram.

Last edited by Ben; 07-23-2014 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 07-23-2014, 11:49 AM   #110
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Condescending and.... really helpful

His AFR's are in the 10's. He is running plugs that are 2 steps colder than they should be on a tune that is 5 steps more rich than it should be.

I can take this exact same ignition system off of Nicks car and install it on mine with the AEM system and produce 400whp before I'll see break up. So let's just stop with the capability of the coils, as much as that's where you'd like to go.

To be clear this system was only indented to support the needs of +/- 22psi. It's a budget minded direct ignition system that allows customers with the factory ECU to run coil-on-plug. I don't need to make any further official claims, however my personal car is proof enough that the coils will support higher boost levels than what Impuls is seeing out of his system when attached to MS. I'm sure his problem at this point is mounting the module (the base is intended to be mounted as a heatsink) and getting the proper plugs in his car.
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Old 07-23-2014, 12:21 PM   #111
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Unsure what condescending remarks you refer to. If directed at me, that is (1) not intended and (2) I have no horse in the race other than you've called out our product previously (and in the snide PM you sent me).

It sounds like Impuls can be more straight forward about if any tune problems exist such as A/F at 10:1. A richer mixture is more difficult to pop off, but there are ignition solutions out there that will do it.

Cold plugs won't cause a misfire at high boost. Fouling out at idle, different story.

The thing about a pissing match is everybody gets pissed on, so that's not my intent. But, as you freely admit, you're not an engineer and don't have the knowledge here. Remember how you used to refer to the 211 inductive module as a CDI module? There are others here that are engineers, and probably do have a good handle on the challenges here, including many years of experience.
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Old 07-23-2014, 12:29 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Impuls View Post
But it seems having one the factory ecu can run and then those wanting +250hp is pretty complicated(at least those not having sequential ignition).
I'm running over 250whp now on stock '96 coils with an MS1 with wasted spark, so I'm going to say it's probably just you.
Put the right plugs in it, gap them down correctly, and tune your WOT to a reasonable AFR and you'll probably be fine. Basically what FAB told you you were doing wrong above ^.
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Old 07-23-2014, 12:32 PM   #113
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I'm running over 250whp now on stock '96 coils with an MS1 with wasted spark, so I'm going to say it's probably just you.
Put the right plugs in it, gap them down correctly, and tune your WOT to a reasonable AFR and you'll probably be fine. Basically what FAB told you you were doing wrong above ^.
I have ran that type of power and even beyond on stock coils from
90-93
94-95
99-00

More than once with each of these, mostly with MegaSquirt, but have also worked with AEM, Hydra, and Exede in Miatas. Oh and Link and emanage, not sure if those really count these days.
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Old 07-23-2014, 12:38 PM   #114
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If you think this is a pissing match I think you've outlined the difference in our approach. This is not a pissing match, let's not treat it as such. I'm simply (with the help of 2 electrical engineers from this board) trying to identify why the same exact components perform better when connected to different management systems. A module that has improved performance (even over the Bosch 211 modules) seems to be the answer. Impuls now seems to have a smaller problem, luckily one that is much easier to solve.
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Old 07-23-2014, 03:09 PM   #115
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While I do think there are differences in our approaches, if you read my previous post again, you will note that you have misquoted me.

Until you actually start testing with an oscilloscope, nothing will be learned or properly solved. All you're doing is guessing, and not addressing the problem of using coils with a low turns ratio in an inductive system (with boost on top of that).

Impuls' problem has been, the whole time, spark blow out. It's now just taking longer to get there. The problem still exists.
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Old 07-23-2014, 03:16 PM   #116
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If you think this is a pissing match I think you've outlined the difference in our approach. This is not a pissing match, let's not treat it as such. I'm simply (with the help of 2 electrical engineers from this board) trying to identify why the same exact components perform better when connected to different management systems. A module that has improved performance (even over the Bosch 211 modules) seems to be the answer. Impuls now seems to have a smaller problem, luckily one that is much easier to solve.
I think you are the only one sensing a pissing match here.

I see an "open source" forum full of people who were interested in helping to troubleshoot the problem with you. You refused the help and said "I got this" without ever really explaining what you were doing or what you did. I understand and admire your sense of "ownership" of the problem as a businessman and your desire to solve it without help from the forum. But you have to understand how this place works. We don't care as much that you fixed it as what the problem was and how it was solved. It has to do with the nerdy, scientific, inquisitive nature of this forum when it comes to electronics. We don't care if you say the earth is round or the earth is flat. We want to know the process by which your conclusion was reached. You dig?

TL;DR - You can't give me a shiny little box that successfully converts daylight to jellybeans and not expect me to take it apart and try to figure out how it works.
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Old 07-23-2014, 03:50 PM   #117
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I think you are the only one sensing a pissing match here.

I see an "open source" forum full of people who were interested in helping to troubleshoot the problem with you. You refused the help and said "I got this" without ever really explaining what you were doing or what you did. I understand and admire your sense of "ownership" of the problem as a businessman and your desire to solve it without help from the forum. But you have to understand how this place works. We don't care as much that you fixed it as what the problem was and how it was solved. It has to do with the nerdy, scientific, inquisitive nature of this forum when it comes to electronics. We don't care if you say the earth is round or the earth is flat. We want to know the process by which your conclusion was reached. You dig?

TL;DR - You can't give me a shiny little box that successfully converts daylight to jellybeans and not expect me to take it apart and try to figure out how it works.
I dig. I'm not refusing the help - the two electrical engineers I'm working with on this have contacted me through this forum. I'm grateful for this and the community, I'm just not trying to turn this into a group discussion. It's not the most effective way to solve the problem especially when that's not everyone's intention.

There are facts intentionally being ignored. That's not a very scientific approach if you ask me.
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Old 07-23-2014, 04:53 PM   #118
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There are facts intentionally being ignored. That's not a very scientific approach if you ask me.
Or in your case, facts are intentionally not given.
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Old 07-23-2014, 05:15 PM   #119
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Or in your case, facts are intentionally not given.
...this is what I'm talking about. Any information I've failed to provide has been because I simply don't have it and I don't have it because the manufacturer does not provide it (as I've previously stated) unless you're an auto manufacturer, currently developing a new vehicle.

So I don't know what this was aimed at but it's also not helpful. I'm all for open source but we've hit a point that is just not productive for me to put effort into this thread and I think that's become clear.
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Old 07-23-2014, 05:43 PM   #120
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I wish I had an O-sillyscope and knew how to use it so I could have helped. Just throwing that out there.
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